[FAILED] raid 0 / fake-raid support in Mageia 3 installer

[biuro74]

Hi,

I'd like to have Mageia 3 (final) installed once it's released, but I've got sad experience with previous ones.

Mageia 1 was fine, except strange nVidia drivers issues, so I gave up.
Mageia 2 was uninstallable due to some stupid message appeared during installation process (in the middle of copying files).
So I strongly count on Mageia 3 as I must have primary OS for work, Mandriva 2010.2 (3) is a bit obsolete, but still functional

So my question is - any bugs has been ammended regarding to installation process on RAID-0 systems (hopefully someone reported it, I have no time for it) ?
Or - generally speaking - will Mageia 3 use RAID-0 capabilities with no issues (especialy those early stage, taken from previous Mandriva sources) ?

Cheers

[ghmitch]

Are you planning to do a NEW install or an UPGRADE. I don't know what issues you might encounter with a new install, but an upgrade from MDV 2010 would NOT work. There is just too much difference between the two systems. A new install certainly should work. But I don't know about installing with software RAID which is what I assume you are referring to. Hopefully someone else here has tried that and can share their experiences.

[biuro74]

Are you planning to do a NEW install or an UPGRADE. I don't know what issues you might encounter with a new install, but an upgrade from MDV 2010 would NOT work. There is just too much difference between the two systems. A new install certainly should work. But I don't know about installing with software RAID which is what I assume you are referring to. Hopefully someone else here has tried that and can share their experiences.

No, it's going to be clean upgrade, I am aware update won't work like in case of ROSA. But it's not a point as I've got 5 partitions for linuxes only with clean install preference in mind
I mean fake RAID-0 allowed by any motherboard, it's still big problem for many distros, surprisingly. Some of them don't recognize RAID volume at install stage, some of them produce errors. Mageia 2 produced error hard to report as it caused (probably the same) message in a loop + CR = fast scroll, so I need to get a picture of screen, or do a movie by camera and further see what's on it = too much useless work for me.

[ghmitch]

Fake RAID is actually a relatively new term associated with software RAID when it pretends to be hardware RAID via a proprietary kernel module/driver in combination with a conventional controller containing some hardware RAID infrastructure, but lacking an ASIC, thus being "fake" hardware RAID. So software RAID is NOT fake RAID really, unless it is pretending to be hardware RAID. But, of course, that doesn't answer your question.

My approach to doing what you are trying to do would be to NOT preformat the partitions you plan to install Mageia on and to remove any existing formating so that they end up simply empty raw partitions. Then, when you actually do this install, choose the custom partitioning option, and use the Mageia partitioning tool to build your RAID 0 array on the two empty partitions. I have never done this with Mageia myself, but I have done it previously with Mandriva. But it would be nice if someone here could assure us that it works. The fact that it is not recognizing your preformated partitions suggests that the installer is not preloading the md RAID kernel module. Someone here might also be able to check on that as well.

Another option might be to use file system RAID 0 with btrfs. I am currently using btrfs in RAID 1 mode. It still has a few bugs, but it really works pretty well overall. I like it better than software RAID. In fact, I like it better than the 3ware hardware RAID that I was using prior to making the switch with Mageia 3. But, again, its not something you can do on install. You have to install the system first on ext4 and then do a simple conversion from ext 4 to btrfs and then add the second partition and convert the combination to RAID 0.

[biuro74]

Personally I think creating software RAID array over existing Fake-RAID one is ridiculous, but - obviously - it might be some kind of solution. I won't do it either.
I expect Mageia would support Fake-RAID as Mandriva does, it's not big deal anyway. So my question pointed to that specific issue.
Second solution would be good - in case of Mageia3 doesn't have Mageia2's issues and will allow to finish install process... but... in such case it becomes redundant.. because if install finishes = no point to convert filesystem, all done.

Seems like I have to download (it's being done) "3", try to install it and see = if bugs still exist, or everything is fine. Hopefully the latter.

EDIT:
Tested. Mageia doesn't even recognize RAID-0 (booted from boot.iso, console dmraid -ay gives "Raid set <name> was not activated = developer would know what's that), so no fake-RAID support. I've wasted time and one clean DVD.. again. Useless. See you next year, Mageia-4 :/

[ghmitch]

I think you might have a long wait. Fake raid requires a kernel module supplied by the card manufacturer in order to work. It is a proprietary binary. Every now and then the kernel gets updated upstream and the original fake raid driver no longer works with the new generation of kernel. Without that driver, NO Linux system will be able to provide fake raid support, UNLESS the manufacturer of the original "raid" card had produced an updated kernel module that MATCHES the current kernel. Lots of luck with that. The fake raid driver is NOT compatible with the built in GPL driver. They are to different systems of achieving software RAID. I highly recommend you try another distro, because I would wager that you will end up with the same problem. As one who has lots of experience with both software and hardware RAID, I think you are fighting a battle here that you can't win.

[jetlimaster007]

Im noticed this post .Have same problem on mine gaming pc always used raid0 fron bios mostly intel for better speed. even at the latest comp just got im using 2*ssd as raid0. it is strange im trying linux back and forward sense 4-5 years and using raid0 fron bios the problem installing that config still not solved . ONLY distro so far managed to recognice PERFECT mine raid0 and i coud install was Opensuse 12.3 kde .
Right now im downloading mageia 3 gonna try on mine laptop whit optimus intel-nvida combo. this laptop hardly 2 years old gonna be nice to se if all working...and yeh im gonna use the hdmi out to a sec screen ..se whats happens :=) back later whit conclussion.

[ghmitch]

Fake RAID requires a special kernel module (driver), that is the bottom line. And that kernel module is almost always a binary supplied by the hardware vendor. In the case of Intel, that module *might* be under some sort of open source non-proprietary license. If one of you can identify the module by name, I'm sure someone around here can sort that out for you. If it IS open source AND non-proprietary, Mageia can make it available I'm sure IF they know what it is. But I would almost be that it is proprietary. SuSE is one of the few distros that distributes proprietary kernel modules. In most cases you can ONLY get those from the hardware vendor. But unless that module can be identified, no one here will be able to be of much help.

[biuro74]

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/i ... 020663.htm

For Christ's sake :/

I've always inserted (modprobe)
dm-zero
dm-mod

and after that dmraid worked fine (in all repairs, at least with Mandriva).

I've checked my make menuconfig in Mandriva and here it is:
* md
* md_raid0
* dm_raid
* dm_zero
* dm_mod
* blk_dev_md

and "Autodetect RAID arrays during kernel boot" is OFF

It worked for Mandriva, why someone during kernel setup in Magei disabled it, even as modules ?

Do you think I can configure Mageia's kernel this way, compile it on Mandriva and replace it on DVD and give it a try one more time (boot) ? I don't want to set up myself too much, otherwise next one-year-long-depression ready again

[jetlimaster007]

Thx for the info, This is explains why the distros mostly not recognize the raid0..pure laziness from the distro makers. save place ? see no reason why samone cant make a nice kernel whit all the drivers we have and make a distro . hell yeh i can even pay for that ! saving pace realy not make sence when you passed th cd 700 mb fromat anyway . 1.3 gb or 2.3 gb is not an issue if you need burn a dvd anyway ! mayby mandriva shoud think about it..
and yeh im tryed install on mine optimus (intel-nvidia) laptop and it was a total FAIL sadly it is bumbleebe and even nvidia drivers out for a loong time ago so no excuse to not working ...no keybord light..no hdmi out working ,mirrored screen is a mess. but the installer was the best im ever tried..least im liked it..
Hope you guys can make a better driver support kernel if you can do this distro can be one of the best !

[ghmitch]

OK ... dmraid and mdadm are NOT fake raid. They are Linux software raid utilities. I don't have a clue as to what Intel is saying about specific Intel support in regards to dmraid and mdadm. I do know that dmraid and mdadm will create a software raid volume on any given set of disks and will recognize a software raid volume on any given set of disks PROVIDED that the required config files are present and that those config files are structured to match the raid volumes present. I went through all sorts of stuff with both dmraid and later with mdadm in regards to dealing with thier respective config file systems (which are different for each). mdadm tends to be more intuitive in my experience than dmraid. Both are GENERIC Linux utilities and their are all manner of troubleshooting guides on the Internet as to how to deal with problems with them. Certainly a raid volume from Mandriva 10 will get recognized by Mageia 3 given the presence of the config files and the proper kernel modules, BUT without those config files and kernel modules nothing is going to work and my suspision is that the problems you are having are related to either config file or kernel module issues. In an upgrade setting, you would need the kernel modules onboard in order for the host system to properly recognize the external raid volumes. The more confusing part of this whole thing is that according to Intel, Linux dmraid (software raid) is compatible with Intel raid (fake raid), thus you can manage fake raid created by the Intel bios with the dmraid software raid controller. But for the life of me, I cannot see how this eliminates the need for the mandatory Linux config files, in the case of dmraid /dev/mapper, etc, which have to be assembled at some point in the process. This puts you in the middle of two completely different environments. On one hand you are in the Intel fake raid environment where everything is supposed to just work and be hidden from view. On the other hand you are in the Linux software raid environment where everything regarding setup and mainenance becomes a manual task. But once you move beyond the Intel controller, without a specialized kernel module, you are in Linux software raid land and are dealing with dmraid which is software raid. The best tutorial I can find at this point that covers your situation to some degree is Fedora's (http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/14/html/Storage_Administration_Guide/raid-subsys.html), but Fedora, like most distributions has moved from dmraid to mdadm to administer Intel created "fake" raid. Once you get into mdadm territory, there are extensive user guides available detailing all of the inner workings. They include http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/html_single/Software-RAID-HOWTO/ and the newer https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Linux_Raid. But the bottom line is that, although Intel bios created fake raid may work with dmraid, there is no distro out there that openly supports it and for that reason you would be much better off with generic Linux software raid. BUT .. IF the previous configuration on Mandriva was operating as software dmraid, Mageia should be able to detect it and install the proper kernel modules to deal with it IN AN UPGRADE ENVIRONMENT. Outside of an upgrade environment, you will need to do the configuration manually. But the confusion here comes from Intel's blurring the line between classic Linux software raid and the newer vendor specific fake raid.

There are reasons why no distro installs ALL kernel modules and that is basically why they are kernel modules. They are only installed when needed. Many of them CANNOT be installed in parallel since they present conflicts. Others are very resource intensive. Others do nasty things when the hardware they are designed for is not present. Linux distros do not install all kernel modules for many of the same reasons that Windows does not install all hardware drivers. Should Mageia detect software RAID and auto install the kernel modules? Perhaps. But there may be some reason for not doing so. I don't know the answer to that one.

If the kernel modules you need on Mageia to detect this volume are not there, but the /dev/mapper entries ARE there, you should be able to simply modprobe the needed kernel modules and be up and running. From that point on, there are the module config files in /etc where needed modules can be included for future boot ups. However, simply adding the necessary /dev/mapper entries might trigger the kernel modules to load.

[jetlimaster007]

If im reading correctly the problem is not a linux made software raid it is the detection of normal bios made raids. dunno how it is but mine gamer friends and me ( and we are many ) we have using the easy made raid options from motherboard bios.
Windows have never hade any problem lto detect and recognize those partitions..That where is all thing confusing me .it is least 5 years ord tech least that im using .started 2x500 mb LOONG time ago. The even more confusing it why Same distro can se it and same cant even doit :=( someone mentioned opensuse using non free property drivers .that maybe be the case but series who really cares ? if those drivers are free to get and download i don't care if is open source made or coming from nvidia. think normal people just want they things get working .grafik. raid0 what ever. sry if is sounds im microsoft lower but we need to give them the credit they deserve. im wanna use linux and id is necessary gonna break mine bios raid0 if im most and if im find a distro which is worth it..so far no luck :=( Im realy want to use linux. like i wrote before it is a mess every linux on mine 2 yeards old laptop..how ever installed same distros on mine 5 years old one (maybe more compaq..same thing and every linux was np at all whit all drivers all out of the box working..its make me sad sometimes how they talking about linux gaming year and if you have a new comp not even your graphic drivers working ..

[ghmitch]

Hardware drivers even in the case of Windows are always ultimately supported by the hardware vendor, not the OS. If the hardware vendor does not produce drivers for Linux, that is the decision of the hardware vendor and there is nothing the distros can do about that. In some cases the hardware vendor will make a kernel module that will only work with certain distributions. It is important to note that software RAID support and video support are two different things. In biuro74's case, I really believe the kernel modules are there, but need to be implemented. In the case of nVidia video drivers, there is usually a NONFREE package available to support that hardware, but that package has to be installed in order to access its features. Certain distros such as SuSE and Ubuntu make a major effort to include proprietary drivers, they are the distros one should choose if easy proprietary driver support is desired. Most other distros choose not to get into that environment since its has some major downsides, like having to worry about whether every kernel upgrade might break something in some proprietary driver or whether some hardware vendor might suddenly decide to remover proprietary driver support leaving Linux users up a creek without a paddle. I think around here most of us are Linux users because for the most part we are either happy to live without proprietary drivers or tech savy enough to fix the problems ourselves. We really could care less whether a person is a "Microsoft lover" or not, since we have no great animosity toward Microsoft other than simply wanting to be left alone. I also don't think that Mageia is trying to promote its brand as being a "gaming" platform. That would be more of an Ubuntu thing. Those of us who like Mageia probably use it mostly for general computing and value its great reliability and stability rather than flashy gaming oriented features. When we buy hardware we check it out very carefully and make sure it works with free and open software so that we never have to rely on proprietary versions. That way we upgrade over and over and our old equipment just keeps on going. I have really top of the line expensive equipment that I got for free from Windows users because Windows no longer supports it, but on Linux it will work forever since the driver side is free and open. So there is a lot of choice out there and no one around here that I know of will hold it against anyone for prefering another distro or Windows for that matter. You have to find out what works for you and use it. Mageia is a great distro but there is no way it can be all things to all people. There is a growing community for which it works well, but there are practical limitations as to how far that community can be extended. That is precisely why having multiple distributions is a good thing. There is a lot of choice out there, so take advantage of it, or just go back to Windows and be happy with it and all its warts.

[jetlimaster007]

I cant say nothing else just agree what you saying even if im feel you missed mine point, lets go back to install problem instead. Finally im got a solution least for mine bios raid0 ssd aka fake raid.After days lookin gon forums samone mentioned to try GParted own live cd . Mine 1st that why it is a diff between that and the one pop upp under install but seam like the full live cd full of drivers. Anyway if anyone have simuler partition rproblem download the lv cd .make the partitions before the install and it gonna be fine. im just installing Mageia 3 on mine main to test it :=)
here the link btw.. http://gparted.sourceforge.net/

[biuro74]

I've got an impression that Mageia has got everything needed to work on my hardware, but someone - being Mageia developer, configuring Mageia - screwed it up again.

I've booted Mageia Live and - obviously - it didn't recognize my fakeRAID. I don't mention it detected my second TV (plugged in, but turned off) and stretched desktop to two.... So I lauinched console and as supervisor loaded modules:
* dm-zero
* dm-mod
* dm_raid
* md_raid0
and after 'dmraid -ay' it was something strange: every single partition has been activated and has NOT been activated (as console output). So at this stage it was easy to mount partitions and see if Mageia reads it - and it did.

So I launched installer, but it happened something strange again - once mounted Mandriva32 partition, this partitioning tool said "partition mounted and formatted", so I quited installer scared that I'd lose precious data from there, bearing in mind until I click "next" it leaves changes unaccepted. And it happened, luckily.
Next installer launch = and this time partitioning tool didn't want to format such mounted partition... so I unmounted it and tried again. No positive result. EXT4 nor BTRFS - no difference.

So I've tried to use GParted to format partition - no luck, too. Log revealed that BTRFS is... experimental and it was one and only error message. LOL, just great. So I've formatted in with EXT4 under GPart = SUCCESS..

At this stage Mageia is being installed (I write it just-in-time), so I'll let you know how it would end

OK, so it ended.. as usual. Once message "system has 45 MB free space only" appeared, everything started to get very slowly (windows moving, mouse reaction etc) and finally (~60% progress) installer informed me that not all files could be copied to destination and it finished its job... Summing it up - it's not what I expected from operating system out-of-the-box: to do some workarounds to make it working at all....

[xboxboy]

Hi ther Biuro.

I'm with you on this one. All my previous Mandriva installs ran my motherboards intel matrix raid perfectly. Mageia 2 did not, and neither does 3.

AFAIK the issue we both have is that I dis-agree about Intel motherboard/bios raid being soft ware raid. It is not, it is a feature of the motherboard, that does use CPU cycles, but appears to the OS as one disk drive when configured correctly.

Like you, I'm keen to fix this, I persevered through Mageia 2 hoping that it would be fixed in Mageia 3, but no luck.

I'll post more in your other thread :https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=5248&hilit=dmraid

[biuro74]

I dis-agree about Intel motherboard/bios raid being soft ware raid. It is not, it is a feature of the motherboard, that does use CPU cycles, but appears to the OS as one disk drive when configured correctly.

Because it isn't.
Fake-raid lies between software and hardware RAID.
First one operates in OS layer, so there's no chance to pure hardware with no such OS or its part to see any content, for example by BIOS - when you do flash update, you can't see any mirror drive, because BIOS simply doesn't detect it (no OS layer).
Second one operates in pure hardware layer, having own CPU, memory and bus, so it's a matter of drivers only to ANY OS to see it.
Between there's fake-RAID that joins some features of both, but is not purely first, or second one. And - similarly - it's a matter of drivers* to detect such mirror under ANY OS.

* drivers and utilities properly configured, which in case of Mageia 2 and Mageia 3 SEEMS TO BE A HUGE PROBLEM