Making simple !

[jag]

I began using Linux when my son was 1 year old, by now he's going to 17 years old ! I have been using Redhat, Mandrake (as paying customer), Ubuntu, Linuxmint and finally Mageia 2 ! At the beginning it was not simple to use Linux but, step by step the community of developpers and contributors have made it more and more comfortable for the day to day use. This worked so well that I had installed 8 PC's in the small company I managed at this time although I'm not a computer specialist. 4 or 5 years ago it was very simple to share a directory or a file because the access was understantable, it quickly worked fine and there was not a lot of places to configure the networks as well as the whole computer ! Times are changing ! Now, I have to say that more and more small utilities appeared in the menus so that the confusion is well there when I have to complete or modify a small part of the configuration (Mageia 2 has concentrated tools making easyer some tasks comparing to others Linux OS). Gnome 3 contributes to make difficult (sorry it's my opinion !) some settings or adjustments, because sometimes it doesn't work or simply I have to look at forums to search the solutions. I.E. : How to change the themes and/or the icons sets ! (With Gnome 2, it only was necessary to use a drag and drop, therefore the 3 version isn't enough easy to use to conquer people comming from others OS !!!)
So, my suggestions are : Let reduce the number of menus when it is possible so that the user find everything regarding the same subject in one place; Let make tools to complete the weaknesses of Gnome 3 I.E. to allows changing the appearence of the wallpapers, icons, etc. in one place thanks to few parameters.
I think that most of the users are lookings for easy settings, modern and recent appliances but not new OS version every 3 or 6 months ! Why changing the appearence and the habits when there no benefit else than to make the user confusion growing ?!
The english isn't my mother tong so, I hope the readers will forgive me whether sometimes my purpose is not as clear I wished !
Long Life for Mageia !

[Lebarhon]

All is more and more complicated and not only the OS. Look at your car or at your phone!
Is that a happy or bad thing ?

[wobo]

According to the manual for my car the automobiles are more simple today. 20 years ago you could find a 10 page HowTo for changing a broken light bulb of your rear light. Today it's just one sentence: "Go to the repair shop.". Much simpler.

[jag]

There is a well known word who says : why make it simple when it can be complicated ! ; - ) Unfortunately, sometimes things are shown more complicated than they may be to believe in a higher value-added ?! Cars and many appliances are becoming easier to use with more and more functions ! Linux is effective as operating system; Everyone agrees on this point though Linux does not win popularity proportioning, why? According to my opinion, the first point is : There is not a Linux standard operating system but a lot of... (in fact, bricks of...) this is not really bad because there are more ideas in several brains (why not to say : companies or teams !) than in only one. However, as the situation continues, some developers will have no incentive to develop for Linux (which by the way!). That's why I think the time has come to define something like a Skeleton that is the common basis of all Linux systems (it is not here to talk about the software, but how to integrate them with menus, etc..!)
I would be happy to know the opinions of each other ...

[Lebarhon]

@ Wobo
You gave me an idea as I am writting the MCC tools help ...Go to ask Wobo.

Mageia/KDE4 is more complicated than was Mandriva/KDE3. You have now settings in the MCC AND in KDE settings. Two places instead of only one. The activities are much more complicated to configure than was the desktop. There is also the 3D effects, and so on... OK it is more functionalities, but much more complicated.

[jag]

I share your opinion regarding the fact that sometimes a new version is a bit more complicated than the previous one but, my attention is drawn by the intuitive side that each system should have because, despite of all, our favorite OS is (or should be) also a nice tool who should have the vocation to help achieve daily tasks in the best conditions. I sometimes have the impression that the majority of the time consumed in developing new versions of an OS could perhaps be invested to simply allow updating to the latest softwares (like a semi-rolling release). I have in mind the recent experiences of the famous Ubuntu and the disastrous effects caused by constant changes in the "political" evolution of the product !
Finally, the previous version of softwares are, sometimes, no longer compatible with the new OS version (change path, library, etc.).All these domino effects do not seem to result from the efficiency. I do not particularly like using Windows 7, but I must admit that only one version of the OS lasts longer than a LTS version of Ubuntu at, yet most "good" Linux distributions worth, I believe, Microsoft Windows 7 ! Should we see this as one of the reasons that companies face some difficulties to convince themselves... and to convince their staff to use Linux ?!

[wobo]

Your reasons are partly the same as Miguel de Icaza gave in his recent blog entry "What killed the Linux Desktop". Interesting sentence:

In my opinion, the problem with Linux on the Desktop is rooted in the developer culture that was created around it.

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html

[jag]

I did not know this article, but I must admit that it matches my feelings ... Sad truth !

[wobo]

That's just one perspective - read the discussion about that article, feat. people like Alan Cox, Linus Torvalds, and others. Interesting how these icons of our Linux universe discuss things the same way as we do.
https://plus.google.com/115250422803614 ... MT5kW8LKJk

[jag]

Very interesting echanges between Miguel, Alan and Linus; In my country we would probably say (with great respect !) that they are well filled heads and doing well but we would add that this is probably quarrels of villagers about who has the most beautiful church (Sorry for the image !) . Each of them has strong arguments but I see no soothing attitude allowing building a common project. But modestly, knowing no enough well the subject I could make a big mistake ! However in appearence, this depicts enough well why a growing number of people changes their mind about the Linux distro they want to use day by day. Mageia, is a perfect example, since according to "Distrowatch", the distro is in second position. In a recent past, let say a couple of years, it was not possible to win the top as suddenly. But in return, I suspect that most of these users are ready to change of distro at any moment for any reason. That's dangerous for the whole Linux , because doing like that doesn't allow to believe these people are using the distro like they would do with a Win7 or an OSX That's why I encourage the Mageia team so that people trying their distro want to keep it on a solid basis of good reasons !

[jag]

Although most people wants to get the up to date softwares it seems they are less sensitive about the most recent Linux distro offered from their preferred distro supplier. After having installed and upgraded a lot of Linux distros during these last 15 years, I personnally share this point of view. A new Linux distro brings new behaviors that are called enhancements but this is not always the user's feeling (New habits, bugs, and so on !). Most the awaited enhancements are E.G. a new gnome version like passing from the 2 to the 3 version (or KDE, etc.) Yet, numerous users were disappointed by a so sudden changing and a big part of them were preferring alternate solutions like offerred by Linux Mint ! Finally, I believe that, people using Ubuntu for instance, cannot always get the last up to date softwares version, in order to do so, they have to upgrade their Ubuntu version every six months. This would explain (if possible) the Distrowatch position of Linux Mint and, of course, Mageia 2 ! Clearly speaking, these users are looking for something else ! We can understand that a big part a them are preferring to use their computer for the day to day usage rather than to spend their time around new distros and the inevitable problems arising in such cases.
In a such changing environment it seems that more and more people are looking for rolling releases. Of course, it's probably not easy to make a such distro, yet, everything well considered Windows 7(r) is 5 years old and people using it are those looking for a stable organisation (I don't speak about software stability, etc.), then, why not !?

[wobo]

Well, this depends on what people do with their computers. Do they use them to get tasks done and to work on their daily load? Then they are similar to me. Lately I had the time to dive into history and enjoy some nice moments of nostalgia. And I started to ask myself questions.

What do I need for a desktop? A menue and space for the windows for the running applications. Done. I realized I would not need more time for my daily trade if I were working with SuSE 4.4.1 instead of Mageia 2 - although there are more than 10 years gone by between these 2 versions. What does that tell us?

[viking60]

I guess that Suse has been a good distro for a long time. But be careful the Embrace phase is over - probably the Extension phase to - So what phase does remain?

The space to run an Application is important but the ability to communicate with other machines is maybe even more important in today's overly "social" society.
(If it works like a smartphone it must be good; right?)

Also there it is a real hurd for Linux that it lacks certain kinds of software. There is no professional book keeping software available - that is the first thing any Business needs!

And the business Arena is dominated by Microsoft partly because of that. But Also because this has been taken care of by International Business Machine suppliers for years.
Linux like systems like (IBM) S36 S38 AS400 (or 3270 systems) were dominant for years.
Then the big Windows Emulation race began to use Windows computers as "Terminals" .

Linux has not been able to even be a player in this field which is surprising because it would be very suitable.
Games is another thing - but that seems to be solved due to Microsofts eagerness to control and PO the software producers.

The brainstroke of a few developers that lead to Gnome3 - is an attempt to make things simpler. The arrogance that goes with it, is that they seem entitled to dictate what you need - without asking you.

Linus Torvalds did tell them off in an unmistakable way - and then they started whining.
Gnome 3 is an attempt to make a DE for people that cannot read. People apparently need big pictures to point at instead.
Ubuntus Unity has the same approach - and is even worse.
Can anyone remember the good old days when the ability to read was considered to be an advantage?

It seems that the devs have underestimated their audience, because there has been a riot: People want the flexibility back.
(But to be fair: Gnome3 is becoming "almost usable" these days).

The good news is that the biggest campaign -ever- to promote Linux is about to be launched:

Windows 8!

It remains to be seen if Linux will be able to take advantage of this opportunity or if people are to busy being offended....

[wobo]

Can anyone remember the good old days when the ability to read was considered to be an advantage?

Yes, but not anymore. The ability to read and even write seems to become a disadvantage, at least in the eyes of the US citizens who watched the first round of duelling politicians. A majority saw the fact that Obama made notes about what Rommney said as a disadvantage: "Do we really want a president who can read and write by himself?"

The good news is that the biggest campaign -ever- to promote Linux is about to be launched:
Windows 8!
It remains to be seen if Linux will be able to take advantage of this opportunity or if people are to busy being offended....

My "prognosis" is biased about that. I've read too many messages about how boring and outdated desktops like Mageia, Fedora, etc. are.

[doktor5000]

There is no professional book keeping software available - that is the first thing any Business needs!

Well, i don't use accounting software, but there is at least

GnuCash http://www.gnucash.org/
Skrooge http://skrooge.org/
kivitendo (formerly known as Lx-Office) http://sourceforge.net/projects/lx-office/
Kraft http://volle-kraft-voraus.de/Main/Kraft?setlang=en

And there are also some commercial, non-open source alternatives ...

[wobo]

Just stroll around at exhibitions like Solutions Linux in Paris or Linuxtag in Berlin and you will find lots of professional solutions (including book keeping).

[jag]

Reading everyone's comments, it seems that there is a "common core" between each of the opinions. I often read and heard from some that they preferred to keep their "old Linux" simply because it works well. This would suggest that, occasionally, one or more new softwares will be needed to complete the user experience. I watched a video about the first tests of Windows 8. it did not seem convincing. We could therefore believe that Windows 7 still has good days to live ! At the Linux side, I am convinced that there is a good opportunity provided there is a common way (between distro makers) like a common skeleton to define all libraries, etc.., will always be found in the same locations so that developers can leverage their working time. In doing so, we could expect more commercilal developpers taking interest to Linux as a good base for their softwares. I guess now, I'm doing the people sreaming in the cottages in the name of the "all is free" !
But, looking around me and using a mobile phone as most of people, I'm surprised to prefer paying a low price for the software(s) I need rather than.... De facto, we are obliged to note that the models of online shops quickly and efficiently develop because developers now have a real job while under Linux they must take on their free time for the wellness of the community ! (in most of the cases, of course !) I am well aware of touching a sensitive point but nothing prevents explore two ways: "the free" and "the paid" !
The goal is not he to give the users a way similar to what has already spread elsewhere, which has also contributed to the development of "cloud" and social networks ?

[oj]

Intelligent developers will see the benefit of making their apps a separate "layer," such that 90+% of the code is totally independent of the OS:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/openso ... s_cid=e011

A minimum of objects need to be ported to the OS this way. This will be the one thing that will make Linux desktops viable.. IF the 'big boys' like intuit, adobe etc move in this direction. Lightworks brings a lot of clout to the debate. I've already begun contacting vendors, sending them the above link and letting them know my customers would buy their products (or stay with them) if they could run natively on Linux, or android, iOS, RT and so on. (but primarily Linux, the vast majority of my customers will continue to use a desktop form factor for the foreseeable future)

[jag]

Here is an excellent example about what the companies interested in Linux can do with a maximum of efficiency but without forgetting to tell that many others companies should do ! In another way, yes, if a lot of people using E.G. Androïd are ready to buy softwares for their mobile phones why should they have to install a companion software on Windows or OSX ? What is justifying a such behavior from the said companies while they already are working on a part of Linux under its form called Androïd ?