Ethernet required for Wifi install? Yes/No? Why?

[varrin]

Greetings to all,

I'm a Mandrake > Mandriva Powerpack user as my primary desktop OS since 2003. Have been evaluating the next step given Mandriva's recent instability and evaluated Mageia a couple days ago. Took the full DVD to install on a friend's computer who is just now switching from Windows to Linux. Compared Mageia 1 to MDV2010.1, OpenSUSE 12.1, and PCLinuxOS KDE 2011.09 (actually didn't get a chance to put the latter through the ringer due to time, but that's beside the point). Mageia looked nice despite a few polish issues, but critically failed when it came time to connect to the internet. I don't recall the hardware type but when I attempted to configure the WiFi, the driver name correctly displayed but then a message popped up saying to enable the non free repository. That requires a network connection. Allow me to highlight the problem:

I need a network connection to get the driver installed to enable the network connection which is required to install the driver to enable the ............

I had difficulty accepting that such an illogical move could have been made here, so I decided to search these forums thinking I had simply made a dumb mistake and could have solved the problem with a few simple clicks. My search led me to more than one thread saying this:

First of all you should make sure you have a full set of online repositories enabled including the non free repository.
MageiaControlCentre>Software>SetupSources

Next run through the setupnetwork Connection GUI in MageaiControlCentre>Network while connected to the Internet via Ethernet..

Please don't get me wrong. I didn't come here to complain and poo poo this effort. Frankly, I wish I had more time to evaluate Mageia. It looks good at first blush and the reviews have been positive (especially compared to MDV2011... just not even gonna go there). I'd love to see this succeed, especially considering my long history and familiarity with Mandriva. But this was a deal killer. Barring another solution, it looks like I'll be using Mandriva 2010.1 for a long time to come (as will my friend... OpenSUSE's few-day-old distro wasn't as good as the year-and-a-half Mandriva IMO). So, the questions:

Is it really this way? Do you *really* have to use a network connection to get the drivers to use a network connection?

If so, can someone please tell me why? Was it an oversight or is this by design? If it's by design, it it out of bounds to ask if Mageia intends to continue sacrificing everyday users in favor of the absolutely perfect all-free-software crusade?

It would sadden me to wander off over something like this. Mandriva's solution, in my opinion, was fabulous: a legit free version and a Powerpack with all the goodies for people who wanted them (I always bought the Powerpack and was almost always satisfied with it). They have demonstrated that it's possible to produce a Powerpack ('non free') DVD ISO with utterly incompetent management and apparently no staff or support (I'm not quite sure how, to be honest). Is such a solution under consideration here?

Thanks in advance for clarification, information, flaming arrows, whatever else might come up....

V-

[Ken-Bergen]

Not to flame but you're comparing apples and oranges.
Both Mandriva/Free and Mangeia have an Open Source philosophy which Mandriva has now abandoned.

If you install from Mandriva/Free 2010.2 and earlier not PWP you'll run into the same thing.
Searching the Mandriva forum for wireless will get you hundreds of topics with the same advice (use a wired connection, enable non-free repositories then configure your wireless).

[varrin]

Not to flame but you're comparing apples and oranges.
Both Mandriva/Free and Mangeia have an Open Source philosophy which Mandriva has now abandoned.

If you install from Mandriva/Free 2010.2 and earlier not PWP you'll run into the same thing.
Searching the Mandriva forum for wireless will get you hundreds of topics with the same advice (use a wired connection, enable non-free repositories then configure your wireless).

Fair enough. So this becomes the question: will Mageia someday become a suitable place for PWP folks (like myself) to wind up, or is the intent for the direction to continue in the free-only (on ISOs) direction? I completely respect the decision of the community (that's what forks are for, right?), but it'd be helpful to know so I don't hold out hope for something that's never coming by design.

V-

[Ken-Bergen]

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=372 is one of the threads discussing this.

There has been a suggestion to make a supplemental CD to use along with the DVD with non open source drivers on it.
Another suggestion was to have the non-free software on the DVD but only installed if required and with an Agree/Disagree pop up.

You could search https://bugs.mageia.org/ to see if there's a bug report on this and add a comment to it and if there isn't you could create one.

[doktor5000]

Well, the fact that most wireless adapters need a sort-of wired bootstrapping is well-known by users of the FreeDVD.
If you don't like that fact, you should use one of the live CDs, most wireless adapters should work out the box with those.

This is there to give people a choice, so they can decide - do i want a fully free libre open-source distro,
or do i want it to "just work" and don't care about licenses et al.

[varrin]

Well, the fact that most wireless adapters need a sort-of wired bootstrapping is well-known by users of the FreeDVD.
If you don't like that fact, you should use one of the live CDs, most wireless adapters should work out the box with those.

This is there to give people a choice, so they can decide - do i want a fully free libre open-source distro,
or do i want it to "just work" and don't care about licenses et al.

The download page doesn't indicate such a thing. I just took a look at the "1" page and it wasn't so clear to me there, either. I realize we're a tad off topic here now, but it would have been helpful to know. This, in particular, is ambiguous:

"For example this repository includes the nVidia and ATI graphics cards proprietary drivers, firmware for various Wi-Fi cards… etc. The set of the Nonfree media is added by default and the “Nonfree Release” and “Nonfree Updates” are enabled by default"

This suggests that the non free repository should be available (or at least critical components of it) from the DVD, but clearly it's not. Yet, I'm gathering parts of it are available on the live CD? If so, I probably should have tried that, but didn't realize that was the case. Also, I would offer a suggestion based on this (also from the "1" page): "The latest versions of both the nVidia and ATI (fglrx) proprietary drivers are available in the Nonfree online repository." This does make it clear that those drivers are *not* on the DVD or CD installation media. My suggestion would be either to expand that statement to include Wi-Fi cards (or at least Wi-Fi cards on the full install DVD), *or*, simply include those also using some method suggested above (warn users before enabling non free).

I do appreciate giving people the choice and I believe that's the right thing to do. Again, I thank all those who have worked so hard to produce this distribution. I hope something I've asked about and/or suggested will result in an even better version 2!

V-

[doktor5000]

Well, the fact that most wireless adapters need a sort-of wired bootstrapping is well-known by users of the FreeDVD.
If you don't like that fact, you should use one of the live CDs, most wireless adapters should work out the box with those.

This is there to give people a choice, so they can decide - do i want a fully free libre open-source distro,
or do i want it to "just work" and don't care about licenses et al.

The download page doesn't indicate such a thing. I just took a look at the "1" page and it wasn't so clear to me there, either.

Maybe you oversaw the last line of the download page:

Not sure of what ISO to download? This may still be a bit verbose, but you may want to read this article detailing our different install media.

Maybe you also want to check https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mirrors_poli ... able_media (descriptions starting below the table)

For Mageia 1, the non-free repository is enabled after the installation by default due to a bug,
but it is not available to any extent on the FreeDVD. Some parts of it (graphics driver, wireless drivers, firmwares ...)
are inlcuded already in the live CDs.

[varrin]

Thank you doktor. I missed that last line of the download page. Wish I saw it before the demo. Sounds like a Live CD would have been the solution. I'll work on that when I have a chance again.

V-

[wobo]

I must say, on a small screen these last lines look like the fine print in the Rules&Conditions everybody should read very closely. This distinction (no non-free, including non-free) is of great importance, especially for the unexperienced user, possibly migrator who is not aware of such "specialties". So, to let them not go into the same trap as varrin IMHO this difference should be displayed more to the beginning and start with a red exclamation mark.

[doktor5000]

So, to let them not go into the same trap as varrin IMHO this difference should be displayed more to the beginning and start with a red exclamation mark.

As your english is _a lot_ better than mine, would you mind reporting it:
https://bugs.mageia.org/enter_bug.cgi?p ... mat=guided
That would be nice

And yes, both of you got a valid point with that, even differences
between FreeDVD and LiveCDs are non-existent on the website currently. For example
the free/nonfree stuff and also the implications relating to that (hardware support, patents ...)

[wobo]

As your english is _a lot_ better than mine,...

Am I that easy to hook?

https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3412