systemd

[syschuck]

You know, I really wouldn't mind taking the source to Mageia 4 from SVN and building the binaries from scratch. I know that Gentoo had a nice system for building the distro from scratch and it would be a learning experience to see how Mageia is packaged and built from scratch. I wonder how well uselessd would fit into the mageia build or are there that many dependencies on the crap systemd. I've done a contrib to the caldron years ago in the mandrake days.

I've been looking at userlessd and it appears to fix a lot of the problems that systemd has. The first fix I noticed was their use of sane filenames. They renamed "-.slice" to "X-.slice". I would have done one better and just named it what it is; "root.slice" which is far more human readable than the either "-.slice" or "X-.slice".

Uselessd also saves the log files in a nice simple ASCII log format. (uselessd is at; http://uselessd.darknedgy.net). Here is what the purpose of uselessd is about;

Uselessd is a project to reduce systemd to a base initd, process supervisor and transactional dependency system, while minimizing intrusiveness and isolationism. Basically, it’s systemd with the superfluous stuff cut out, a (relatively) coherent idea of what it wants to be, support for non-glibc platforms and an approach that aims to minimize complicated design.

Uselessd doesn't treat /usr as a root directory and fixes the /usr goofiness of the 'Usermov' brain-deadness wanted by systemd where all of the systemd is located in /usr/lib/systemd forcing /usr to be part of the root filesystemd during boot! Anyway Uselessd really does seem to fix a lot of the complaints I've had with systemd. It seems to build very nicely on Mageia 4. Perhaps Mageia could be one of the breakaway distros that adopts Uselessd over systemd.

Systemd is the most ugly thing I've seen. I feel like I'm one of the people in the fairy tail about the Emperor's New Cloths. Everyone seems to be praising the Emperor's new cloths like they praise systemd as the new savior of Linux. I keep looking and all I see is a naked fat wrinkly old emperor pretending to have new cloths.

[zeebra]

Which part of the documentation you don't find helpful? And what is lacking?

SystemD documentation is generally very poor and obscure. Just searching "what you need/not need" in a search engine online almost never come up with any relevant results. You need to become a systemd expert just to use a system with systemd.

The commands make no sense, are not at all logical and as mentioned not well documented.

If you think Mageia can do better, feel free to send patches and take maintenance and development for whatever alternative you propose.

Not everyone can make/package/configure an alternate init system for Mageia, have it work and make it optional and hope that its included on the disk.

hah.

another systemd topic, I hate these things.
Dont like systemd use slackware.

That comment is about as worthless as they come.

Not necessarily Jim. I had enough of systemd and I am moving back to Slackware (which I havent used as main distro since early 2000ds)

another systemd topic, I hate these things.
Dont like systemd use slackware.

That comment is about as worthless as they come.

Hey at least I am not starting another "I hate systemd it is the work of microsoft blah blah" topic.
These systemd debates are the plague.
I am just annoyed by it, only supernerds who have used linux enough who can code for it that they might as well go off and go slackware or gentoo.

This is a very bad attitude towards something which is widespread FOR A REASON.

And how do your posts in this thread help with this?
If you don't like systemd, then for gods sake keep using Slackware if that makes you happy. But don't bother others that are happy with it.

No I dont care one way or the other with systemd, I am more sick of the debates then systemd itself.
I personally dont mind systemd

Debates are important. If the Mageia community thinks otherwise, this is a bit strange.

[doktor5000]

Which part of the documentation you don't find helpful? And what is lacking?

SystemD documentation is generally very poor and obscure. Just searching "what you need/not need" in a search engine online almost never come up with any relevant results.

How about searching for the obvious, like "systemd documentation"? Which leads to upstream http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ and the now 21 blogposts-long extensive series of systemd for adminstrators. Or the Redhat/Fedora and Archlinux documentation on it.

The commands make no sense, are not at all logical and as mentioned not well documented.

Well, there are basically two commands, systemctl and journalctl. I'd say the documentation is quite extensive, compared to other linux tools.
Apart from that,

Code: Select all

apropos systemd

shows a lot of related manpages, on prepackaged unit files and also in general.

For comparison, what defines "well documented" and logical to you? Care to share some examples?

If you think Mageia can do better, feel free to send patches and take maintenance and development for whatever alternative you propose.

Not everyone can make/package/configure an alternate init system for Mageia, have it work and make it optional and hope that its included on the disk.

Yet you still demand that others should do that as you request it, no?

Debates are important. If the Mageia community thinks otherwise, this is a bit strange.

Why do you assume we think differently?

Debates always have two sides. If you only demand and are not willing to contribute and/or agree on compromises, then a debate is pretty much futile.

So far you don't like systemd from what I've understood, but you don't want to contribute to implementing an alternative.
Who do you think should do that, if not those who demand it? Mageia is a community made up of voluntary contributors.
You demand that somebody else shall do something. That's not really what community is about.

[duncangareth]

I didn't really want to start a flame war regarding systemd.

I suppose I was upset that my Cauldron setup got broken by an update to systemd. (I was using a separate file system for /usr as I have been doing for the last few decades.)

I find it very unhelpful when people say "Linux is not UNIX". I think that people who think that the command line interface embodied in the shell is unnecessary are sadly deluded, and possibly mentally lazy.

I also think that I shall continue using Mageia, Mint and Ubuntu for clients' desktops, but I am sadly aware that a system built around systemd does not suit my particular needs as far as my own laptop is concerned. I have therefore changed to PCLinuxOS for practical purposes.

I am using Mageia on my main remote access server at my workshop, and I shall use it as a tool for becoming familiar with the workings of systemd.

Two last remarks concerning systemd:

1. The fewer background processes the better, especially on a desktop machine. systemd seems to work in the opposite direction.
2. It is strange that the creator of such an elegant piece of software as pulseaudio should also be responsible for spawning a bloated monster like systemd.

I shall shut up about systemd now.

[doktor5000]

I find it very unhelpful when people say "Linux is not UNIX". I think that people who think that the command line interface embodied in the shell is unnecessary are sadly deluded, and possibly mentally lazy.

Yep, I said that. And it stands true. But I cannot comprehend how you relate that to not linking shell.
I like shell, and I totally agree on your latter comment - but how does that relate to the former statement you quoted at all?

[duncangareth]

Ah, good Doktor,

The two things were not necessarily related. I should have used two separate paragraphs.

Apropos of the "Linux is not UNIX" statement, I find it unhelpful because it is a statement which may be both true or false.
A Linux kernel based distribution is not UNIX, obviously, but then again, on another level the two are so very similar that one could say that, for example, FreeBSD and Mageia both belong to the class of "Unix-like" systems. If I login to a remote system and see a dollar prompt and I can use Bourne shell syntax and grep, awk, sed, vi, etc., it is, for practical purposes, a UNIX system. If one wants to split hairs and dwell on the differences, fine, if that triggers one's signals.