Mageia Rolling Release please

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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby ferri » May 14th, '12, 06:17

undoIT wrote:How about a semi-rolling model so that not every package that comes down the pipe is upgraded but certain mile-stones or at certain intervals...

This is model of Linux Mint Debian Edition.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby undoIT » May 14th, '12, 06:48

ferri wrote:
undoIT wrote:How about a semi-rolling model so that not every package that comes down the pipe is upgraded but certain mile-stones or at certain intervals...

This is model of Linux Mint Debian Edition.


Yeah. I just wish there were more focus on KDE for LMDE. There were discussions about that a while back, dropping Mint KDE and moving KDE to LMDE, but then they went ahead with a Mint KDE release for version 12. Now that they are focusing on Cinnamon and Mate, I doubt KDE is going to get the attention it deserves for LMDE.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby ferri » May 14th, '12, 16:42

undoIT wrote:Yeah. I just wish there were more focus on KDE for LMDE. There were discussions about that a while back, dropping Mint KDE and moving KDE to LMDE, but then they went ahead with a Mint KDE release for version 12. Now that they are focusing on Cinnamon and Mate, I doubt KDE is going to get the attention it deserves for LMDE.


It is possible to migrate LMDE from Cinnamon/Mate to KDE. I personally did it few months ago in virtual machine with Gnome LMDE.
There are some suggestions at Linux Mint forum http://forums.linuxmint.com. ;)
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby doktor5000 » May 14th, '12, 21:38

@undoIT: Whatever you want can be proposed, if you find enough people to work at it. Simple as that.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby ruel24 » May 22nd, '12, 02:48

undoIT wrote:
ferri wrote:This is model of Linux Mint Debian Edition.


Yeah. I just wish there were more focus on KDE for LMDE. There were discussions about that a while back, dropping Mint KDE and moving KDE to LMDE, but then they went ahead with a Mint KDE release for version 12. Now that they are focusing on Cinnamon and Mate, I doubt KDE is going to get the attention it deserves for LMDE.


Since Mint KDE is based on Kubuntu, and Kubuntu is officially dead, there definitely won't be a Mint KDE edition. KDE will have to move back to LMDE unless they want to maintain their own, which I doubt they will given Cinnamon and MATE. Mint is an awesome distro that's hampered with goofy Gnome. Mint KDE is nice enough, but like Kubuntu, a red headed stepchild of the main Gnome release. Personally, I'm disappointed by that. I'll never use anything but KDE. I just can't stand to use stripped down/dumbed down desktops.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby undoIT » May 22nd, '12, 09:32

ruel24 wrote:Since Mint KDE is based on Kubuntu, and Kubuntu is officially dead, there definitely won't be a Mint KDE edition. KDE will have to move back to LMDE unless they want to maintain their own, which I doubt they will given Cinnamon and MATE. Mint is an awesome distro that's hampered with goofy Gnome. Mint KDE is nice enough, but like Kubuntu, a red headed stepchild of the main Gnome release. Personally, I'm disappointed by that. I'll never use anything but KDE. I just can't stand to use stripped down/dumbed down desktops.


Canonical is not providing financial support after 12.04 but this does not mean Kubuntu is dead:

http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kubuntu-to- ... ue-systems

There will be a Linux Mint 13 KDE release:

http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2010#comment-64419

Cinnamon 1.4 is very nice, actually makes Gnome 3 framework usable. Not quite as good as KDE, but very usable and much more productivity friendly than either Gnome Shell or Unity.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby ghmitch » May 27th, '12, 06:26

I would just like to add something here that I would like to see that I believe would allow a small step forward toward the rolling release concept without undo added load on the maintainers. And that is that I would like to see MUCH more use of "task" packages. For example, I am thinking that if ALL of the "sys v init" packages had been managed under a "task-sysvinit" meta package, it would save having to deal with each sys v package individually in the transition to systemd. Instead, the upgrade would be handled by removing one package "task-sysvinit" and installing one package "task-systemd". And there are just a huge number of complex sub-systems in a typical Linux system that could be broken down into task meta packages. While the underlying work is still there to a large degree, it would greatly simplify things in terms of deployment. It would also greatly simplify things in case something does break, since you would not need to know the long list of packages involved, but could simply remove the offending meta package and replace it with its predecessor. - George
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby doktor5000 » May 28th, '12, 00:34

ghmitch wrote:For example, I am thinking that if ALL of the "sys v init" packages had been managed under a "task-sysvinit" meta package, it would save having to deal with each sys v package individually in the transition to systemd. Instead, the upgrade would be handled by removing one package "task-sysvinit" and installing one package "task-systemd".

Mind to elaborate on that one? During my upgrade, i was only asked this:
Code: Select all
In order to satisfy the 'systemd-sysvinit|sysvinit-legacy|sysvinit-legacy|systemd-sysvinit' dependency, one of the following packages is needed:
 1- systemd-sysvinit-44-13.mga2.x86_64: System V init tools (to install)
 2- sysvinit-legacy-2.87-17.mga2.x86_64: Programs which control basic system processes (to install)
What is your choice? (1-2)

It can't be made simpler than that, without leaving user still a choice for SysV or systemd.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby ghmitch » May 28th, '12, 03:09

doktor5000 wrote:It can't be made simpler than that, without leaving user still a choice for SysV or systemd.


I think you are perhaps missing my point. My suggestion is NOT a complaint at all. The upgrade process was as smooth as silk. I am thinking that grouping all these major subsystems under task metas would make the whole thing simpler for the PACKAGERS, not for us as users (other than enabling an easy back out from the command line if something *does* go wrong). On the user side, I have NEVER in my 12+ years of using Linux, encountered an upgrade anywhere near as easy as the Mageia 1/Mageia 2 upgrade. It was totally glitch free and so far EVERY report I have seen from others has indicated the same incredible experience. - George
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby msdobrescu » May 28th, '12, 13:43

Good idea. It is similar to Sabayon's ebuilds.
I use it since last year and I very satisfied.
I see that there are many packages from Mageia 1 in Mageia 2.
So, at a smaller scale, we could say that packagers and builders - due to lack of time and resources - left some old builds (no problem as they are fully compatible). So, imagine releasing some new KDE builds, for example, from time to time, after thoroughly testing them. Or any other software. It is more manageable and more friendly to the user. There is already an updater, it should check for the build version instead of that and major distro release. Some DVDs or CDs could be done yearly or whenever possible.
Rolling release doesn't mean build and install only. Testing for stability is mandatory and possible.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby doktor5000 » May 28th, '12, 14:21

Nope, as the task- namespace is already quite filled up, and there's no use of grouping together many packages in task-packages, because you then also have to maintain dependencies in two packages. On the other hand maybe i didn't understand probably what you really wanted to achieve with that, mind to give an example?

@msdobrescu: You are mixing and mangling many issues here ...
And if there are no more volunteers, there will be no more ressources, so no additional releases, builds, intermediate update images or major updates in between a distro's lifetime. Simple as that.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby msdobrescu » May 28th, '12, 14:38

Maybe. As 'resources' I've named here volunteers too. These are most valuable ones. I would gladly join you if I wouldn't be bound to a contract that forbids me that.
Check Sabayon's release system, you'll know what I mean. A task there is KDE - it upgrades your packages to the specific version. It updates dependents too. It is controllable too, everything is built against a set of libraries, tools etc.. You, as distro builder, decide which and how much to upgrade/update at a time. The user chooses whether to install or not. It is a very good system for the users that need newer releases. Me, for example, I need blender 2.62 + yafaray 0.1.2. You know what you need because your users request and you could make priorities out of these statistics.
In the end, Mageia rocks, I love it and I think it is one of the friendliest available. I wish it is more and more powerful. That's why I discuss these things, also.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby ghmitch » May 28th, '12, 18:09

I have to say that I really understand the concerns being expressed here regarding the rolling release format. To do rolling releases right requires a huge investment of ADDITIONAL time and resources and if you try to do it without making that investment, you sacrifice system stability and dependability and before long your distro has the sort of reputation that turns off your users and leads to one of those steep and slippery slopes downward. So I DO think this whole issue is one that needs to be very carefully thought through. One of the things I did not really appreciate about Mandriva was that they had a penchant for putting all of this really bleeding edge stuff out there that was half baked. But it was REALLY tempting to install it and try it out. But over and over, after installing this stuff, I would have deep regrets. This is stuff that really should have remained in Cooker, rather than being introduced too early to the distro itself. Right now, Mageia seems to be holding a lot back in Cauldren, because what is finally coming through in Mageia is rock solid. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THIS CHANGE. Anyone who wants a rolling release type feel is free to dip into Cauldren and pull out whatever. I realize this does not comprise a rolling release, but to have it otherwise would either cost a lot of additional quality control time on the part of the devs OR pose an extreme risk to the great stability and dependability we have all come to expect from Mageia. - George
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby wobo » May 28th, '12, 18:24

ghmitch wrote:Right now, Mageia seems to be holding a lot back in Cauldren, because what is finally coming through in Mageia is rock solid. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THIS CHANGE.

AMEN to that. The moment Mageia starts to decrease the amount of time and ressources they are now investing in QA and stability will be the moment I'm out of the door. This stability is my top reason I'm using it.

Of course, if there are masses of new developers, packagers and experienced QA people at our front door who would guarantee the same level of quality, let them in ASAP and start thinking about a rolling release! And an LTS as well!
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby undoIT » May 28th, '12, 18:27

I don't understand the development process, so from an ignorant user standpoint, a rolling release with stable packages being released when they are ready is desireable. However, if it does take a huge amount of additional resources to do a rolling release vs. standard release, then it is not worth it. I'll still do a fresh install every time a new release comes out, just to avoid any old crufty files being left around and config file headaches.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby msdobrescu » May 28th, '12, 19:10

I do understand the effort, but still I would like to see a rolling release out of Mageia. This doesn't mean I would give up upon it if it is not a rolling release. But imagine I have purhased an expensive TV Tunner having support on Linux, but starting with kernel 3. And I have purchased it one year ago. I've waited for a release for one year. I've got another distro and I have set it fine in order to watch TV and do regular stuff. Now I have 2 distros and I love them both. Although could be a waste of energy to have them both, it is hard to chose...
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby PietroTux88 » May 28th, '12, 20:23

no Rolling release just following Cauldron if you want danger packages bricks LOL :mrgreen: Good rolling Cauldron devoloped
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby doktor5000 » May 28th, '12, 20:51

If you want a rolling release, use Cauldron, or something like Arch Linux or Gentoo or get us masses of new contributors. We want to provide a high-quality and stable distribution, and we're currently already lacking contributors for QA and packagers who are concerned about updates for released distros, yet you still want to add more workload and lower overall quality by asking for a rolling distro ...
ghmitch and wobo and even PietroTux88 totally got it right, nothing more to add.
Last edited by doktor5000 on May 28th, '12, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby wobo » May 28th, '12, 21:28

Thank you! I got something right! \o/
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby msdobrescu » May 28th, '12, 21:42

Rolling release is not same as unstable. You just skip the releases from whole distro packages bunch to subsets of packages related in one way or another one to each other.
It's like new MIB builds. (Ironically being in the same country with my preferred rolling release distro, which is not Gentoo). Gentoo means to build everything and I don't have the time.
Cauldron is not a rolling release, it's a testing place. Rolling release means to have major or minor versions upgrades from time to time, when the piece of software is available. For example KDE 4.8.0 to 4.8.1, or 4.7.x to 4.8.0. After good testing always.
Offtopic question: is Gantoo + Sabayon community bigger? Are their teams bigger? Just curious...
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby doktor5000 » May 28th, '12, 22:08

Well, as you seem to know better what this all means, why not just do it yourself?
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby wobo » May 28th, '12, 22:11

It would be unstable if we would do it in the current situation. And it would not match the majority of user opinions. Remember, this discussion is almost as old as Mageia.
I don't know the number of contributors for Arch or other distros which are using RR.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby msdobrescu » May 28th, '12, 23:27

Sometimes I do builds for myself, as I can't get everythig as built. I could install a Gentoo or build KDE, if there is really mandatory.
I won't start a flamewar. Mr. doktor5000, please try Sabayon, although I don't advertise it. You'll see it can be stable and RR at the same time. How do they manage that? Maybe KDE's maturity could be an answer. Don't know. I think they work hard too.

The leap forward for Mageia is obvious, we have an almost new kernel, much closer to the latest, compared to the past, because all the knowledge was freed and now we enjoy a modern distro. For me, this was a mandatory option (as I have a TV tuner with pretty stable drivers starting with 3.3).

Of course, the current situation is hard. I discuss here, I don't demand. I'm free to cry for my needs and options. If I don't, who would know some user's needs? Still, I am happy for Mageia being free of its constraints, we feel the advantages of this step already. But I would have liked to join the power of development instead of splitting it. You know, I've already considered that a collaboration is desired to a fork.
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby ghmitch » May 29th, '12, 04:02

If getting the latest kernel is the big thing, that is pretty easy to solve. *USUALLY* you can pull a kernel from Cauldren and stick it in and it will work OK. I have done that successfully numberous times with Mandriva. Very occasionally, it is blocked by dependencies, but usually not. And I have found this to be not so dangerous to system stability. BUT, there is a reason that Mageia does not push out new kernels from Cauldren between releases, no matter how safe it might be to do so. That reason is that with Linux, EVERY system is different, and that creates a HUGE complexity. You can push out a new kernel from Cauldren between releases (a sort of mini rolling distro) and it would probably work on 95% of the systems out there. But what if you were one of the 5% with a crucial application using a module that had a nasty bug in that new kernel. ONE DEFECTIVE MODULE. You wouldn't be very happy. And you might not be in a position to back that kernel out or even figure out that it was the new kernel causing the problem. So, I'm with you on the idea of a rolling release, but it just can't be done right with the current available resources. And we don't want it done until it can be done right. And that means doing it in a way that NONE of the current users experience bugs, and that is a LOT of developer time to sort out AND deal with bugs after the fact which may only affect 5% of systems out there, BUT they STILL have to get fixed and fixed in a timely manner. - George
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Re: Mageia Rolling Release please

Postby msdobrescu » May 29th, '12, 05:45

The beauty of RR: new versions of software become available after thorouful testing much sooner than a new full distro.
In my case there are many things, the kernel is just one of them. Oftenly, a KDE minor version is released 3 times before a new Mageia is released. Then many other tools... During this year, I've seen much improvments in KDE that I use now. For instance some nice launcher plasmoids, which make my desktop easyer to use, not only nicer. They were pretty broken before.
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