Mageia Mandriva relationship

[dave]

Hi folks! I'm reading about the future of mandriva and i found this sentence:
"we're very much willing to invite them and participate in an independent foundation on much of same premises, where they'd be allowed to continue their work without any forced influence by us, but being able to gain support and funding for us". So I'm asking for some info about this, Mandriva (or RosaLab) invited Mageia for some new project/collaboration?

[tubasoldier]

I've read that statement before as well. I'm not a developer for Mageia. When I read that statement it sounded to me like, "how can we leverage the Mageia community to benefit us?"

[obgr_seneca]

Where did you read this?
I know proyvind had some ideas along those lines at FOSDEM, but he never came arround to tell us, what he means by it.

Oliver

[wobo]

You may have missed a lot of traffic then
No problem, there was all included what you may imagine. Official texts were misinterpreted more often than taken as they are, people like Per and also MIB are talking about things which only exist in their imagination (like Per announcing himself as project leader for the next Mandriva - without Mandriva knowing anything about it), etc. Latest event is a little "edit fight" in the Mandriva wiki between Per and somebody from Mandriva. I know Per for a couple of years on virtual life as well as in person, when it comes to topics outside of development he seems to have his own relationship with reality.

Don't bother. We'll get the real beef in a couple of days (if not delayed again) and then all these speculations will be gone. It's just a glimps of an eye in the life time of a turtle.

[proyvind]

Latest event is a little "edit fight" in the Mandriva wiki between Per and somebody from Mandriva. I know Per for a couple of years on virtual life as well as in person, when it comes to topics outside of development he seems to have his own relationship with reality.

Seems like my perception of reality] still holds more water to it than the assumptions coming from your loud mouth though.. :p

This page - and in general this wiki - will be part of a global move of the Mandriva Linux Project to the community that will be finalized soon. Mandriva SA wishes the project to be managed by the Mandriva Linux community under a proper governance. We (Mandriva SA) will contribute to the Mandriva Linux project in the future and would like to see it grow. We do not wish to comment below the following line and want to emphasize that the present wiki is the community wiki, while being hosted for the time being on a mandriva.com domain.
J.-M. Croset, Mandriva SA, CEO.

For the change of project leadership on the wiki and the following edit mess, it's something that I started discussing in a meeting with Jean-Manuel Croset in Geneva a few days before the General Assembly, and further meetings with him and Jean Parpaillon over the following days at the Paris office, with the approval of both.

The confusion internally since with Antoine Ginies, a Mandriva employee (or rather ex-employee actually, as he's already left the company for SuSE since), is probably due to me making some false assumptions myself when announcing it internally, assuming that the content changed on the wiki being self-explaining..
Since then, actual public announcement was delayed due to the CEO (JMC) wanting to possibly move the wiki to a different domain name like mandriva.org or mandrivalinux.org first in order to make the distinction between Mandriva, the company and Mandriva Linux, the community distribution project more clear first, but he apparently found himself settling with adding a notice on the top of the wiki page in stead for now (and hey, it was already well-established as a community wiki already, even it's name "Mandriva Community Wiki" reflecting it;).
Oh well, corrected since.

There should be some further announcements coming from Mandriva related to this and otherwise veryvery soon now..

[wobo]

Seems like my perception of reality still holds more water to it than the assumptions coming from your loud mouth though.. :p

Well, my impression was not based on this wiki page alone but on the previous months/years. You knao as well as I do that you proved me right on more than one occasion. So lets not waste time over this.

JMC phoned me yesterday evening so I'm up-to-date on the planning and the related issues.

(BTW: I would never dare to get into a p.... contest with you about loud-mouthing. You proved often enough that you are much superior to me in that area.)

[proyvind]

Hi folks! I'm reading about the future of mandriva and i found this sentence:
"we're very much willing to invite them and participate in an independent foundation on much of same premises, where they'd be allowed to continue their work without any forced influence by us, but being able to gain support and funding for us". So I'm asking for some info about this, Mandriva (or RosaLab) invited Mageia for some new project/collaboration?

(ps: should've been "funding from us" rather than "funding for us", which easily could've been misiniterpretered, re: "leverage" of Mageia)
Yes, (at least) Anne & Romain has been invited and possibly a few others that I suggested, but seems to have declined interest (dunno whether invitations were sent to just the two or the others as well, nor whether it was just one person declining wrt. him/herself or on behalf for Mageia as a whole)..
If anyone has interest in or have any opinions or ideas to share related to any such thing, feel free to get in touch though.

An announcement related to this and other matters following the Mandriva General Assembly that took place on the 30th of April and on the board meeting on 14th of May since, is expected to be made later today.

There might just be coming some other news of interest to most people in here even as well.

[proyvind]

Seems like my perception of reality still holds more water to it than the assumptions coming from your loud mouth though.. :p

Well, my impression was not based oon this wiki page alone but on the previous months/years. And I was right, regarding the page itself and the whole to and fro about it.

Not really though, but whatever..

JMC phoned me yesterday evening so I'm up-to-date on the issue.

Ah, so he did? Then maybe he's been in touch with the others from Mageia I recommended as well then.

[wobo]

Yes, (at least) Anne & Romain has been invited and possibly a few others that I suggested, but seems to have declined interest (dunno whether invitations were sent to just the two or the others as well, nor whether it was just one person declining wrt. him/herself or on behalf for Mageia as a whole)..

Right after the first meeting of JMC and Anne this was reported to the Mageia community (she addressed the Mageia council but the mailing list is open to be read by the public). Their position of "declining interest" received unanimous agreement by those who read the report and replied. There was nothing personal involved, the offer/invitation was declined because of the basic understanding of what Mageia is and what it is not. Collaboration with Mandriva is always welcome. But in no way more or in a superior position than anybody elses collaboration (like we have comunication with developers from several other distributions, ex. Fedora, SuSE).
JMC told me that he perfectly understands the Mageia position.

JMC phoned me yesterday evening so I'm up-to-date on the issue.

Ah, so he did?

We've been in touch via mail & phone for a couple of months, so this was nothing unusual. But it must be understood that JMC started communicating with me because of my position as head of the German Mandriva community. That's why he is also meeting us next week in Berlin. This is not related to Mageia. Certainly I could never talk on behalf of the Mageia project, I am holding no position here.

[proyvind]

Right after the first meeting of JMC and Anne this was reported to the Mageia community (she addressed the Mageia council but the mailing list is open to be read by the public).

Hm, if you're referring to the thread from two months ago, then that's a different subject (without any invitations), what I referred to was only decided first on Monday.

We've been in touch via mail & phone for a couple of months, so this was nothing unusual. But it must be understood that JMC started communicating with me because of my position as head of the German Mandriva community. That's why he is also meeting us next week in Berlin. This is not related to Mageia.

Ah, I see, makes sense. Although I don't think we're necessarily on the same subject anymore then..

[wobo]

Hm, if you're referring to the thread from two months ago, then that's a different subject (without any invitations), what I referred to was only decided first on Monday.

Yes, I referred to the meeting 2 months ago - nothing has changed at Mageia.Org since then. If so it would have been discussed in the board and/or the council for the public to read. At Mageia there are no "back room" politics.

Ah, I see, makes sense. Although I don't think we're necessarily on the same subject anymore then..

Yes, as I wrote - this last part is not related to Mageia.
What I wrote here concerning Mageia is just the opinion of me as a normal Mageia user and may or may not resemble the official position of Mageia. I thought that was obvious.

[dave]

so mageia will remain independent and mandriva will return to the community. okidoki!

[proyvind]

Hm, if you're referring to the thread from two months ago, then that's a different subject (without any invitations), what I referred to was only decided first on Monday.

Yes, I referred to the meeting 2 months ago - nothing has changed at Mageia.Org since then. If so it would have been discussed in the board and/or the council for the public to read. At Mageia there are no "back room" politics.

For what those meetings concerned, there was no invitation given from Mandriva, but was rather regarding considerations of using a Mageia release as the base for one server version by Mandriva, the company, which isn't related to Mandriva Linux as a community project nor Mandriva's involvement in it, and even much less so for any relationships between Mandriva Linux & Mageia communities.

Ah, I see, makes sense. Although I don't think we're necessarily on the same subject anymore then..

Yes, as I wrote - this last part is not related to Mageia.
What I wrote here concerning Mageia is just the opinion of me as a normal Mageia user and may or may not resemble the official position of Mageia. I thought that was obvious.

The actual subject I was discussing was actually this one:
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/05/17/ ... community/

And just to reiterate, this one doesn't have any relations with the meetings (between Mageia and Mandriva, the company) two months ago that you referred to.

[wobo]

The actual subject I was discussing was actually this one:
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/05/17/ ... community/

Ah, so you referred to a blog entry which was not even published when you referred to it?

Anyhow, "back to the roots" as somebody commented in the blog. I appreciate the decision of the company as published yesterday. Now we will see what it will bring in reality. Of course, this blog must be understood as being not more than a non-binding letter of intent. Mandriva will be helping along by organizing a kick-off meeting. Where this meeting will lead to and whether it will lead to anything substantial at all is not in Mandriva's hands but depends on
- whether these talks will end in a consensus about several not so trivial decisions.
- whether the resulting organisation will be able to last a little longer than a couple of months (since I watched the initial building of the Mageia organisation I got an idea about what it takes).
- and last but not least - whether it is possible to round up enough manpower to build something which will be able to put up with the not so low expectations of the public and the expectations of the company (the company will not support something which is not going anywhere near what the company needs).

[proyvind]

The actual subject I was discussing was actually this one:
http://blog.mandriva.com/en/2012/05/17/ ... community/

Ah, so you referred to a blog entry which was not even published when you referred to it?

As you said that you had spoken with Jean-Manuel on the phone recently, I assumed it was related as I recommended him to invite you, Michael & Thomas to the workgroup in addition to Anne & Romain that he already had on his list, but I guess it might've felt inappropriate or something after their declination..?
Dunno..

Anyhow, "back to the roots" as somebody commented in the blog. I appreciate the decision of the company as published yesterday. Now we will see what it will bring in reality. Of course, this blog must be understood as being not more than a non-binding letter of intent. Mandriva will be helping along by organizing a kick-off meeting. Where this meeting will lead to and whether it will lead to anything substantial at all is not in Mandriva's hands but depends on
- whether these talks will end in a consensus about several not so trivial decisions.
- whether the resulting organisation will be able to last a little longer than a couple of months (since I watched the initial building of the Mageia organisation I got an idea about what it takes).

Another good reason for why I thought of you as someone one should invite.

- and last but not least - whether it is possible to round up enough manpower to build something which will be able to put up with the not so low expectations of the public and the expectations of the company (the company will not support something which is not going anywhere near what the company needs).

Well, considering that ie. ROSA (which in addition to myself, also has ie. bero & gmoro working exclusively on Mandriva Linux already) will participate and has high interest in this, there's a quite big incentive due to obvious mutual benefits for an independent arena to participate in, also with greater econimical ability to help realizing it.

[wobo]

As you said that you had spoken with Jean-Manuel on the phone recently, I assumed it was related as I recommended him to invite you, Michael & Thomas to the workgroup in addition to Anne & Romain that he already had on his list, but I guess it might've felt inappropriate or something after their declination..?

No I don't think so. Communication is always superior to digging trenches (expression?). They will have another nice opportunity when they will meet in Berlin.
Yes, I knew about this through the phone but "not in public"

Well, considering that ie. ROSA (which in addition to myself, also has ie. bero & gmoro working exclusively on Mandriva Linux already) will participate and has high interest in this, there's a quite big incentive due to obvious mutual benefits for an independent arena to participate in, also with greater econimical ability to help realizing it.

Yes, of course, but ROSA is also a company which may (or may not) have their own interests. Anyhow, we will see what comes out of it.

BTW: At the first idea I refused the invitation because I'm not a technician and for personal reasons, but JMC insisted

[proyvind]

As you said that you had spoken with Jean-Manuel on the phone recently, I assumed it was related as I recommended him to invite you, Michael & Thomas to the workgroup in addition to Anne & Romain that he already had on his list, but I guess it might've felt inappropriate or something after their declination..?

No I don't think so. Communication is always superior to digging trenches (expression?). They will have another nice opportunity when they will meet in Berlin.
Yes, I knew about this through the phone but "not in public"

Well, considering that ie. ROSA (which in addition to myself, also has ie. bero & gmoro working exclusively on Mandriva Linux already) will participate and has high interest in this, there's a quite big incentive due to obvious mutual benefits for an independent arena to participate in, also with greater econimical ability to help realizing it.

Yes, of course, but ROSA is also a company which may (or may not) have their own interests. Anyhow, we will see what comes out of it.

BTW: At the first idea I refused the invitation because I'm not a technician and for personal reasons, but JMC insisted

Ah, good thing then, very happy to hear of that!

[wilcal]

My PipeDream/Speculation

I think a lot of us have had ideas on Mandriva.
After all some of us, me included, put many
years into that. If I was to win the Lottery,
giving me unlimited funds, I'd try to fix
this with lots of $/EU and model it around the
success that Red Hat / Fedora has. Basically
build it as a Europen competitor to the
American Combo. You'd be buying the Mandriva
name or whatever is left of it. That would
become the professionally distributed version
of the open sourced community developed
Mageia. Red Hat's added value is the corporate
support and applications. Mandriva would have
to develop something competitive to JBoss.

FWIW Red Hat ( RHT NYSE ) has a $1.1B revenue
stream and a Market Capitalization of about $10B.
RHT's profit margin is about 13%. So anyone
attempting to displace RHT, even in the European
market, better have some deep pockets.

[wobo]

Mageia can't be bought

So, whatever Mandriva does or does not, whatever Mandriva is planning or not planning, whatever relation there is or will be between Mageia and Mandriva - all decisions and all plans for Mageia will still be taken and made by and for the benefit of Mageia, nobody else. Period. Of course, everybody can benefit from these decisions and/or plans if he wants to (that's even encouraged). But this is something already known.

Maybe it doesn't need all your dream-money, and there will still be a solution soon (more or less soon, that is). Basic planning is on the way (as Per Øyvind already wrote). Let's see what will come out of it. Because /me thinks, once an organised "Mandriva community" is on its way there will be a lot of chances to collaborate between the two organisations, both will benefit from the work of the other.

[ghmitch]

Maybe it doesn't need all your dream-money, and there will still be a solution soon (more or less soon, that is). Basic planning is on the way (as Per Øyvind already wrote). Let's see what will come out of it. Because /me thinks, once an organised "Mandriva community" is on its way there will be a lot of chances to collaborate between the two organisations, both will benefit from the work of the other.

Actually, I don't think Mandriva's problem has EVER been financial, it has rather been poor management. Bad management will simply blow through all the money you throw at it and acomplish nothing. Mandriva over the years squandered plenty of money on grandois plans that never came to fruition largely because many of them were hair brained (my personal opinion of course). (Remember Henry Poole etc.) AND OF COURSE, I am talking about Mandriva the company, NOT Mandriva the community. Mandriva the community (especially the developer community) toiled on through one dissappointment after another and time after time, really played a major role in bailing Mandriva the company out.

[wobo]

Well, partly I agree, partly not.

It is true that once the big money came in (before the DotCom crash) also the management from such investors came in and blew the money in all directions (Poole is one of the names). But that ended with the Mandrakesoft crash in 2003. After that Jacques LeMarois threw out that management and brought the company back to the roots (distribution). This was possible because at that time you were able to make money with distributions (PowerPack). When this changed the company did not understand this early enough and still put lots of money into the distribution without getting a revenue which matched that money.

After that Mandriva did not throw out money cause they hadn't any money to give away. The just did not succeed to play with the big boys (remember that whining of Bancilhon in his open letter about Ubuntu and it's mountains of Shuttleworth money).

The bad image of the company wrt the community made no difference in the business world, it only had an impact in the community and the private user area (which did not generate revenue anyway). Terminating the contracts of people well known in the community did not help either (Gaël Duval, Adam Williamson, et al - where the temination of my contract only had an impact on the German community). The final stroke towards the community (contributors and users alike) was the EdgeIT liquidation (ordered by the French offices on the base of the 2003 agreement about paying back their depts). To be correct: it was not the EdgeIT liquidation itsel but rather the way the employees of that entity were treated.

So I agree to the part about poor management in general. Now there is an important difference between Croset and all previous managers of Mandrake/Mandriva:
- Croset is not just another employee of an investor or somebody playing with investor's money. He is an investor by himself and he is playing with his own money.
- Playing with his own money and being a swiss businessman by origin means: he is able to invest in measurements he thinks are important but it is also important to him not losing any dime - because it is out of his own pocket.

From these points I see a different approach and a chance that we will see a different management than before. By conversations with him and by a meeting in person last Saturdaythe he seems to be somebody who also sees the mistakes of previous management and he seems to know what he wants - but this is just my individual impression which is not worth much except that I for myself (even being a Magaian) put some trust in him.

[ghmitch]

From these points I see a different approach and a chance that we will see a different management than before. By conversations with him and by a meeting in person last Saturdaythe he seems to be somebody who also sees the mistakes of previous management and he seems to know what he wants - but this is just my individual impression which is not worth much except that I for myself (even being a Magaian) put some trust in him.

Well, I certainly hope that you are right. What Mandriva and the Linux community in general really needs here is another leader like Shuttleworth. Shuttleworth, with all his faults, and he has plenty of them, is, at once, a shrewd businessman AND a visionary leader. He has acheived amazing things with Ubuntu, and though some of that is disconcerting to free software purists, it has, nevertheless, propelled Linux forward in ways I never before imagined. Right now, I think it is arguable that Shuttleworth and Google are the two major forces in the Linux world these days. Of course, I do not mean by that to slight the old line forces like Red Hat and IBM. They are out there too and much appreciated. But Shuttleworth and Google, in my mind, represent the truly visionary forces that are prying open the future of Linux right before our eyes. Some of this may be a bit uncomfortable, but, I think it will pay dividends in the future for all of us. That discomfort arises in large part because they are playing footsie with the proprietary world, but, in the end, I don't believe the proprietary world will win. I think, rather, the proprietary world is going to have to finally adjust to the free software world and settle for life in this new environment where free commodity software occupies a major space and where there is eventually full interoperability between the free software world and the proprietary software world. With the right leadership, Mandriva could be a part of that coming together, and, at the same time, could become, once again, a vibrant and profitable enterprise.

[wobo]

I agree to your view of what Canonical has done for the Linux world (including the dark side). But think again:

Would Canonical have been able to achieve all this without the zillions of dollars Shuttleworth has sent down the pipeline? Definitely not, neither with a visionary Shuttleworth nor without. So the primary Good Thing Canonical had/has is Shuttleworth's money. They can easily try this or that without being afraid that investors and shareholders are lurking all the time and will withdraw their money if something fails hard. They can get all the Call for Tenders of public offices and companies because they can afford to offer prices below any other company's ability. No doubt they are popular in the business world.

In my opinion Shuttleworth has done but one visionary thing: he had the idea to make users believe that Ubuntu was THEIR distribution and THEY had a real say in the development and future of Ubuntu. As long as he can hold up this belief among the users Ubuntu will stay successful.

[doktor5000]

As the *buntu users believe deeply in _their_ distro, they also whipped up masses of high-quality documentation, which i like quite a bit, which is also a benefit to other distros in many cases, if they're not too proud to point to it or reuse it.

[wobo]

Yes, this is something all others can look at - OTOH it is also a result of the quantity of users and their belief in THEIR distro.
The belief we have (or should have). Although with Mageia it is not a belief but a fact. As soon as users will understand it they will also see the responsibility they have.
Then, hopefully we will also reach a critical mass of users which will result in such a wiki.

What I admire even more than the quantity of documentation at Ubuntu wiki is the overall order, all documents are following the guidelines, no extras. If you know how to follow one doscument you know it for all documents. This is really something.