Discussion about release cycle (comments)

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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby Akien » Jun 13th, '11, 08:58

misc wrote:But do not forward the mail, ask to people to speak on -dev rather than discuss on $others_comm_channel ( like irc, forum, others mls ). People not posting on -dev will lose their right to complain they were not listened. If someone is volunteer to gather feedback for their own group, it will be fine.


To people willing to participate: please consider this last sentence and join the discussion on the mageia-dev mailing list. You can subscribe here: Mageia's mailman. If you just want to read the discussion, you can find it in the archives.

To prevent people from posting there and being unheard, could a moderator lock this topic? Thanks.
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby Lebarhon » Jun 13th, '11, 09:57

It's a pity to have to subscribe a ML with hundreds of posts for only one subject ! Why in mageia-dev and not mageia-discuss ? This thread isn't for dev only, it concerns every one.
There is already a page on the wiki for ideas and suggestions, why this new way ? You are spraying informations all over the place instead of collect it.
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby roadrunner » Jun 13th, '11, 12:44

I agree entirely and let's not make the mistake that most other distros make by posting information all over the place. There should be one single "collection point" and, by all means, allow folks to link to it if they so wish.

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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby roadrunner » Jun 13th, '11, 12:52

Akien wrote:
misc wrote:But do not forward the mail, ask to people to speak on -dev rather than discuss on $others_comm_channel ( like irc, forum, others mls ). People not posting on -dev will lose their right to complain they were not listened. If someone is volunteer to gather feedback for their own group, it will be fine.


To people willing to participate: please consider this last sentence and join the discussion on the mageia-dev mailing list. You can subscribe here: Mageia's mailman. If you just want to read the discussion, you can find it in the archives.

To prevent people from posting there and being unheard, could a moderator lock this topic? Thanks.
Rather than locking this topic, a far better idea would be if "mailman" could cross-post to this forum and vice versa.

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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby ennael » Jun 13th, '11, 13:42

For now this is the easiest solution even if it does bother you. Sorry for that. We will think about it later but now we have to decide about that point quickly so that it does not block coming developments. Yes it may be a pity but Mageia is young a,d still looking for volunteers to setup all tools we need. And our admin team members still sleep during nights :)
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby Lebarhon » Jun 13th, '11, 17:12

ennael wrote:And our admin team members still sleep during nights :)

Fortunately, nights are short this month :lol:
Well, please don't lock this thread, I will be the "mailman" who push it in trough the ML
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby maat » Jun 13th, '11, 20:05

Lebarhon wrote:
ennael wrote:And our admin team members still sleep during nights :)

Fortunately, nights are short this month :lol:
Well, please don't lock this thread, I will be the "mailman" who push it in trough the ML


Thanks a lot Lebarhon... you're offering a very elegant solution :)

But this is likely to be time consuming for you i fear :)
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby pmithrandir » Jun 13th, '11, 20:21

On my side, I think mageia should do a "mix" of others idea.

I would say :
- A release every year.
- During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, libreoffice...)
- During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if there is some instant success for a new software.

Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 4 years.

So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode :
- The LTS
- The common release
- The cauldron.

With that kind of stuff, you should have no more than one release for public at a time, and just one LTS.
If you update main software(we could define a list of no more than 20 software) people who are crasy about new function, or developper who need tham to develop new stuff would be happy.

BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum.
It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions.
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby Lebarhon » Jun 13th, '11, 21:27

maat wrote:But this is likely to be time consuming for you i fear :)

Only until the June 22nd
But there is a problem, where to put the messages in the ML ?
Anywhere -> it may break a discussion
A new post -> it may cause a lot of threads with the same subject, not easy to sort them later on
I suggest to create a thread called "[Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum "
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby maat » Jun 13th, '11, 21:43

yup... seems a clean way of doing things for me
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby corbintech » Jun 13th, '11, 22:12

I quit the ML because I was not doing it right (never used a list like that before).

So if I may, I will post here what somebody responded to me and write my response here.

complete rolling release would put a QA strain on each of the levels. think
about it, it's not only the current package being updated, but also the
combinations with other packages. (AND also all the long time supported
versions)

This would mean that for each package being release, it'll have to work with
the current set of other packages, but also with the packages you'll be doing
next.

if you have this constant level of QA, you need alot of resources (which we
don't have in QA), and as an extra result, you'll not have the same level of
QA you could have, when you're doing a release.

it's much easier (as devs) to just choose a subset of packages, and test those
out.

if you have X QA-devs, and you have 1 subset of versions of packages, you can
test alot more than if you have several versions of several packages that need
to work all with each other in almost any combinations...

not to mention that you need an extra step with QA to put a "group" of
packages from one level to the next...

sorry, but with our current resources, i vote no. i want current resources to
be used much more efficiently than with a rolling release.


Why do we keep acting like there is no other way to pool resources? I have never helped develop in any way, teach me something and I'll lend a hand... Others may do the same.. ASK!

QA comes from testing... Test... Test... And test more... To make sure what you have works and works well. Let's change up my idea a bit and satisfy everyone... Let's compromise...

How about Cooker (or whatever you call) rolls to rolling (can be very stable???!!!) with release cycle releases based on a snapshot of either of the rolling models and supported for X amount of time? This could make those whom want a rolling release model happy and those whom want a release cycle.

Would this be hard? I don't really think so as development is already based on a rolling model (cooker or whatever), all that will have to be done is packages roll down the line. I seen in the start of all these talks you wanted to support 3 structures of systems... Here they are!

What about this? Get the community involved!
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby roadrunner » Jun 13th, '11, 22:24

pmithrandir wrote:BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum.
It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions.
Well said, I couldn't have put it better mysef and I agree 100%

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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby leuhmanu » Jun 14th, '11, 13:07

If you don't like Mailing-List you can use web interface like gmane: gmane.org (but I don't know how it's work)
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Discussion about release cycle (comments)

Postby corbintech » Jun 14th, '11, 15:21

Yet something I feel the need to reply to from the ML:

I've been around when there were no forums, just news groups and
mailing lists. And I have been posting in forums since they were
invented (even in early CompuServe times). What I found out over all
these years:

1. All these reasons which have been posted here and in previous
threads since the beginning of Mageia communication are the very same
reasons (in favor and against both platforms) which have been posted
10 years ago and zillions of times in between - nothing has changed
one little bit on either side.

2. If you handle both platforms right there is no difference at all
between them (except that mailing lists are easier to handle in a
text-only environment, which is quite rare these days)

So, IMHO this discussion is as meaningless as the famous/infamous vi
vs emacs discussions of way back when.


Yes and while we are at it why don't we go ahead and get a 1-800 number and set up a BBS for such talks? I am comfortable with that... We could all do it on Commodores while we are at it... Or why could get out the old 286?

The point is that many have not used a ML and why should we have to?

I have never in my life seen people hide behind something with so much enthusiasm in my life... Roll with the changes... Forums are in and MLs are out (unless you would like to set up a Yahoo group perhaps?)...
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby Lebarhon » Jun 14th, '11, 15:28

I remind you that the title is: Discussion about release cycle
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby wobo » Jun 14th, '11, 15:33

corbintech wrote:I have never in my life seen people hide behind something with so much enthusiasm in my life...

Yes, this goes for both sides as I tried to point out.

And lebarhon is quite tight - this ML vs Forum battle seems so much more important to many than the discussion about the release. :twisted:
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby corbintech » Jun 14th, '11, 21:12

wobo wrote:
corbintech wrote:I have never in my life seen people hide behind something with so much enthusiasm in my life...

Yes, this goes for both sides as I tried to point out.

And lebarhon is quite tight - this ML vs Forum battle seems so much more important to many than the discussion about the release. :twisted:


You are correct...

The COMMUNITY wants forums, developers and "old tech gurus" want the ML... Goes back to the whole point about no one caring about the COMMUNITY! The very people who are going to support this project don't seem to matter.

This has everything to do with release as much as anything. The people developing don't want anything to do with what the people want! Really??!! What is the point of all this?

Is this really a cover up and we are dealing with rouge Windows developers? They would be the only group of devs I might see so disjointed from what everyone else wants???

Oh well, Arch here and happy.... Have fun!
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby dave » Jun 14th, '11, 22:32

One release every year with the related updated (don't wait one year for have ad updated software) is better. The best could be an half-rolling like chakra but this option isn't in the proposals :lol:
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby maat » Jun 15th, '11, 08:31

corbintech wrote:
wobo wrote:
corbintech wrote:I have never in my life seen people hide behind something with so much enthusiasm in my life...

Yes, this goes for both sides as I tried to point out.

And lebarhon is quite tight - this ML vs Forum battle seems so much more important to many than the discussion about the release. :twisted:


You are correct...

The COMMUNITY wants forums, developers and "old tech gurus" want the ML... Goes back to the whole point about no one caring about the COMMUNITY! The very people who are going to support this project don't seem to matter.

This has everything to do with release as much as anything. The people developing don't want anything to do with what the people want! Really??!! What is the point of all this?

Is this really a cover up and we are dealing with rouge Windows developers? They would be the only group of devs I might see so disjointed from what everyone else wants???

Oh well, Arch here and happy.... Have fun!


I already said that but ok let's do it twice: trying to separate developers and community is nonsense : developers are as much part of the community as translators or moderators or users... the community is a whole.

And by the way : without developers the community wouldn't exist at all ;)

So please, breath deeply and calm down a little bit... some devs are here without showing too obviously that they are devs, some dev just come here when we summon them and some will probably never come here.

Just as you don't like mailing list and decided not to use them, they have the right to dislike forums and not use them: this is the very same liberty as you claim for yourself ;)
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby wobo » Jun 15th, '11, 11:46

corbintech wrote:The COMMUNITY wants forums, developers and "old tech gurus" want the ML... Goes back to the whole point about no one caring about the COMMUNITY! The very people who are going to support this project don't seem to matter.

Sorry, but you are almost one year behind, this is not the Mandriva forum and you are not a user community member barking up to the walls of a company.
There is no "They like this and We like that". It's "Some of us like this and some of us like that". So what? As much as you have the right to use a forum, I have the right to use a ML. Or both. Or none. This division is there, ok. But it is in no way a division of defined groups where one does not want to talk to the other.
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby claire » Jun 16th, '11, 14:27

pmithrandir wrote:On my side, I think mageia should do a "mix" of others idea.

I would say :
- A release every year.
- During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, libreoffice...)
- During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if there is some instant success for a new software.

Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 4 years.

So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode :
- The LTS
- The common release
- The cauldron.


I completely agree with this. There is no real need to rush releases as long as new versions are easily available. I know backports repo is available but its not very user friendly. As an example, the newer versions of Openshot video editor have a very nice feature of being able to do animated titles. To be able to use them you need Blender 2.5. Whilst Mageia includes Openshot 1.3.1 (which errors with missing plugins btw) which at time of writing is current it still has Blender 2.49b.

It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a newer version is available and a simple click to upgrade it.

LTS releases in Ubuntu IMHO are a great idea and one which would add value to mageia as a potential server/business OS where stability over time is crucial.

I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6 monthly distribution upgrade, only that new versions of the software they use are easily obtainable in the mean time and won't break the distribution upgrade when it comes around.
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby roadrunner » Jun 16th, '11, 15:35

claire wrote:
pmithrandir wrote:I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6 monthly distribution upgrade, only that new versions of the software they use are easily obtainable in the mean time and won't break the distribution upgrade when it comes around.
Speaking as a typical "Joe Bloggs", all I'm interested in is keeping my applications up to date with the occasional distribution upgrade. I'm not interested in regular release cycles because I feel that this leads to "rush-jobs", which in turn, leads to bugs galore. I'm more interested in a solid reliable distribution upgrade on the "it'll be ready when it's ready" basis.

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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby stormi » Jun 16th, '11, 21:36

claire wrote:It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a newer version is available and a simple click to upgrade it.


The fact that the current way to handle backports for users is not totally satisfactory is true, I think most people agree on that. Me and other people have the will and ideas to improve this, but I can't promise immediate results.

Here are several ideas I have in mind about this,
- an update applet similar to the current update applet, but dedicated to backports. I don't know if it will be done, it requires development which I can't do myself at the moment, but it could be interesting. Users could choose if they want to be notified that a new backport is available for installed software. A potential drawback is it will propose all available backports, when maybe you want only upgrade some programs, but not your whole KDE or GNOME for example (if backported, which is not sure). A way to solve this would be to add extra settings to the applet so that it watches only a subset of the installed packages.
- in parallell, me and other contributers are working on the Mageia App Db project (see my signature below). One of the features that will be available is being notified by e-mail when a new backport is available, be it any backport or only those concerning specific pieces of software which you would like to have updated regularly (you choose). It should be available for all users before the end of the year, I hope.
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Re: Discussion about release cycle

Postby Trio3b » Jun 17th, '11, 17:55

Must preface this reply by saying I am not a coder, developer, packager. Just an end user. Long time MDV user (ver. 10.0). I have tried almost every distro out there for fun but on my main desktop I use MDV 2008.1KDE3.5.x and have stuck with it b/c it is used for business.

I have been tinkering with PCLOS for the past two years. It is very easy to succumb to the "grass is greener" mindset and I too have fallen into that trap with PCLOS. It really is a fine distro (originally and to some extent still based on MDV) but have come to the conclusion that for fun, upgrading/Updating is fine, but for day to day business use it is not really an option.

I understand that Mageia has little or no control over certain elements of the IT landscape.Witness KDE fiasco with distro forums full of problems, breaks, memory leaks, Plasma configuration problems. I have experienced that with PCLOS being a rolling distro so I have NOT migrated to it for business as of yet.

I believe that a great deal of credibility can be given to opensource if it can be seen to be stable and useable for long periods of time in the business community. I haven't a clue about the technical requirements in determining a release schedule but can speak from a users standpoint and that is many small businesses such as myself CAN NOT employ technology people. I really enjoy installing and configuring linux OS on various hardware but I have to be realistic and stand firm in the belief that if one of my office crew is faced with a blank screen (as has happened with recent PCLOS2011.6 test release), then the fun of "fixing" it must take a back seat to getting on with work.

It is mentioned that several releases can be maintained at the same time. Can't a long term stable release be made to sync up with new advances every couple years, with the long term user UNDERSTANDING that a major reinstall will be necessary at the end of that 2-3 yr . THAT IS INFINITELY preferable to an upgrade that breaks something.

Speaking of planning, when you KNOW you have to upgrade you will have your work flow and backups planned. An upgrade that breaks a system disrupts workflow and even if you have data backed up it destroys confidence in the ability of the software to support workflow.

Workflow disruption is an enemy to running a business and constant KDE4 upgrades have kept me from leaving KDE3.5.x

Hope this helps some devs
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Re: Discussion about release cycle (commeents)

Postby maat » Jun 17th, '11, 18:06

Moderation notice : post of Trio3b moved here where it should have been posted ;)
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