do we need cinnamon ..... or gnome shell is enough

[almusalimalmusalimah]

hello everyone

i just want to ask about cinnamon project which is now building by mint linux

do you think we need to import it for mageia OR gnome-shell is enough

specially when the other major distros has some members in thier forums have announced that they import it like this memeber

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=274611

so what do you think

[winstonteacox]

Yep. We need it.

Gnome Shell is getting slightly better with the extensions, it looks good, but it still behaves like a smartphone OS .
And I don't like a smartphone OS at my 22' screen ...

Maybe Mate will keep the old Gnome alive, but I think, it's a dead end .

So, yes - we need Cinnamon as a useful alternative to KDE...

just my 5 Eurocents ...

cheers,
Bernd

[doktor5000]

I'm not into gnome, but i've heard that Mint has some extensions for gnome3 / gnome-shell which make it look and behave like gnome 2, called MGSE [Linux Mint Shell Extensions for Gnome 3] But seems from what i read this cinnamon thing is Mints fork of gnome-shell from gnome 3. The question is not, do we need it or not, but is it sustainable in the long run, who will maintain it upstream and care for bugfixes and security?

[winstonteacox]

In my opinion it's sustainable.

There is a reason why the mint numbers are skyrocketing even more at the moment:

a) disgruntled ubuntu-unity users,
b) disgruntled gnome3 users (former gnome2 users, now without DE, forced to use a big smartphone ... ha....)
c) mildly disgruntled users who are looking for an alternative to KDE, which is terrorizing cpu cores with 100% ...
d) in principle disgruntled users (Bavarians...)

Cinnamon seems to be the best solution for the needs of this groups ...
(ok, c) and d) just kidding ...)

As I understand, at the moment cinnamon is maintained by Clem, the Mint-Boss.
But there are people who built rpms and debs already, for example for Fedora, Ubuntu, Arch, OpenSuse .... ( http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61 )

Personally, I would like to see Cinnamon in Mageia ...

cheers,
Bernd

[doktor5000]

Uhmm, what about the happy kde users you forgot, who are happy and gleeful about those multiple problems on the gnome front?
Because now it's the complete reverse situation as during the initial migration to KDE 4 and afterwards until it became really useable.

just kidding there. For such a huge chance i'd suggest to discuss this on one of the mailinglists first,
i'd go for mageia-discuss but would CC -dev.

[winstonteacox]

For such a huge chance i'd suggest to discuss this on one of the mailinglists first,
i'd go for mageia-discuss but would CC -dev.

done ...

*runningforcover*

Bernd

[viking60]

MSGE is an extention that makes Gnome3-shell "almost usable".
The one thing that does not work even with all the Mint extensions is the adding of personal launchers on the panel. For many people this is a show stopper because they used to put some code in there.
This works in Cinnamon and that is about the only thing that is better in comparison to Gnome3-shell with MSGE.
Cinnamon:
|
In general it looks like this:

Don't worry about the different backgrounds - I have animated it.

[Nick_Djinn]

Hello. I am a user of Mint-Debian, which has gotten 'Cinnamon' just like Mint Main.

There is some bad information here.

Cinnamon is NOT merely MSGE. When I first saw it I was like "Hey, isnt this just MSGE which is primarily other peoples extensions besides the custom panel"?.....Even then, that panel REALLY helps make it usable...However, MSGE was their early solution to Gnome3, while Cinnamon is a true fork and has some major improvements over MSGE. The first thing I noticed is ""hey, that useless top panel is gone. The 'cell-mode' feature is still there, but only at the very very top left with your mouse. That leaves room for a dock that is fully pinnable, and now you can even have a choice of 3 panel setups for top or bottom or dual....The new mint menu is nice to have. I would say ESSENTIAL as Gnome3 is just garbage without it. Unity is slightly better, but even less customizable and performs the worst.


There are a few other very important distinctions.....While Gnome3 only allows 'extensions' that interact with the shell itself, Cinnamon now is coded to allow plugins that specify their own place in the API.....ei, this is a solution for creating dockable applets, and there are about 5 in existance so far.


There is more, but Cinnamon is a true fork and is superior if you dont have a smart phone.

If you ONLY used MSGE and imported Mint Menu and did nothing else, at least it would make Gnome-3 usable.....But if you installed Cinnamon as the Default as a Dual-option, which would make sense since they have near identical dependencies anyway, then you have an environment that truly allows innovation that is not possible in Gnome-3.....Also, it looks and behaves way better....In fact, I would strongly encourage you NOT to merely go the safe route and to actually import Cinnamon, and allow the plugins API. However, Gnome-3 is not a product you want to give people with your name on it, unless its for touch screens, or unless you AT LEAST import MSGE with the traditional menu written by clem.


As much as I like and appreciate that Gnome could be on tablets, I feel like they really took advantage of us by using us as a testing group to develop their cell phone and virtual appliance environment....It is not really the next step up from Gnome-2, its an entirely different project. They probably just assumed that the community wouldnt develop it if it was a seperate project from Gnome-3, and they are possibly right....Its not suitable for desktops and laptops though.

Cinnamon>MSGE>Unity>Gnome3 (without tweaks).

[Nick_Djinn]

More applets/docklets for Cinnamon (Which dont exist for Gnome3).

http://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/applets


These applets are brand new, and there might be some bugs, but I have had zero problems with the default setup. Using Cinnamon encourages innovation within the distro that isnt possible using Gnome3 extensions.


Using Cinnamon would also give you a competative edge against Mandriva who recently did some cool things with KDE...Not that competition has to be hostile, but I prefer your democratic community model and would very much like to see you get some recognition.

[doktor5000]

Thanks for some definitive informations on the matter, really appreciated

FWIW, there probably won't be much changes to Mageia's Gnome setup for Mageia 2, so it will probably
be a vanilla Gnome 3 which can be used with Gnome Extensions (don't beat on me for that description, i'm no Gnome user)
but for next Mageia release there is much room for interested Gnome users to contribute. It's just that we're short on manpower,
but if somebody is willing to package and maintain Cinnamon, we can offer that in parallel to our current Gnome.

[martinw]

I had almost given up on GNOME 3, and was searching for a satisfactory alternative, but then I discovered how to configure the panels in fallback mode. In case anybody else hasn't yet discovered this, you need to hold down the Alt key whilst using the centre or right mouse buttons. So I won't be needing Cinnamon until the GNOME developers decide to do away with fallback mode...

[rickst29]

Uhmm, what about the happy kde users you forgot, who are happy and gleeful about those multiple problems on the gnome front?
Because now it's the complete reverse situation as during the initial migration to KDE 4 ....

All of you "happy KDE users" need only wait 3 months for Qt5, and 6-7 months for KDE-Next... because we're about to do it again!

For some things, I'm running Qt5 right now. You may be amused (???) to learn that it won't even link into xlib anymore. You will have to use Wayland, which isn't ready, or XCB ... which, in Cauldron, seems to have "issues" which I don't understand.

OTOH, your 15-button mouse will be able to do shortcuts on every button, and additional shortcuts for certain button combinations. That part, I do understand.

[obgr_seneca]

Actually I'm an LXDE user and I do think it will be quite some time, before anything of that kind does happen over here

[atsol]

Gnome-shell (or hell) should be considered a bug by normal and power users.
Personally, If Mageia does not support a desktop like mate (cinnamon is not good enough, it still has many problems, say with adding applets to panels) I will have to abandon my preferred distribution (Mandriva, and now Mageia) for another one.

It is just impossible to do serious work with gnome-(s)hell. And it is not accidental that even Linus stopped using that.

[obgr_seneca]

Gnome-shell (or hell) should be considered a bug by normal and power users.
Personally, If Mageia does not support a desktop like mate (cinnamon is not good enough, it still has many problems, say with adding applets to panels) I will have to abandon my preferred distribution (Mandriva, and now Mageia) for another one.

Well, we can't hold you here.

It is just impossible to do serious work with gnome-(s)hell. And it is not accidental that even Linus stopped using that.

Well, Linus did revise his initial estimate in the meantime. But although Linus does great work, the god-like status he is often given by some parts of the community is a bit exaggerated...

So what do you tell us? "Either you do what I want or I use another distro"?

Let me tell you, that is not the way things work in a community distro, because all of us are volunteers, and if nobody volunteers to do something, it won't get done. Considering, that we are a young and rather small community and there are not yet as many packagers as we would like to have...

There are two choices: either you keep your opinion and say "I don't give a **** about community work, I just want to use things without paying for them" or you start contributing...

Oliver

[wobo]

It is yours and Linus' personal taste and preferences. Telling that you will have to leave one distribution because it does not supply what suits your individual taste will not change anything. To change the situation you have 2 options: either contribute to that one distro so that it may be able to add your preferred desktop or change to another distro which already supplies what you want.
This is Linux. Having different desktops and different distributions helps everybody to find his own.

EDIT: Oliver was faster, as always!

[atsol]

You did not understand. I am part of the linux community probably many more years than you are. I say this in order to explain only one thing: I know very well how the community works. I did not try to threaten anyone. Of course, your answer would be correct if I was trying to say "you either do that or...". This is not my intention or my way of thinking. What I described was just a natural course for myself. If I can not work on a distro I will have to find another one. This is true for every person. It is true for you too. It is not a threat. By no means.

I have spend a month trying to work on gnome-shell. It is impossible. And although you may find it nice, I am sure that this is not the first time you hear such a complaint. Everywhere on the internet people say the same thing. We already have two forks of such a big piece of software. You can close your eyes, of course it is your right, but it has implications on how you view things. Do not bother with me or cinnamon or mate-desktop. Do you care for the users or only for the developers? I think you care for the users, otherwise we would not be here. So if indeed you care for users you do not have to follow of course what they ask for. But at least you should listen what they have to say.

[obgr_seneca]

I don't know anything about GNOME, I never liked it and so I never used it.
I am a long time KDE user who nowadays uses LXDE because I don't like all that eye candy stuff.
Ok, I am in the lucky position of ahving found a desktop that does what I want on the distro I like, but I went one step further then just using it and took maintainership of LXDE. This way I do know, that "my" desktop is and will stay in the distro and somebody does care about...

Oliver

[wobo]

You did not understand. I am part of the linux community probably many more years than you are.

Of course you are. I only started with Linux in 1995 and have been part of communities since then.. So your experiences are surely way ahead of mine.

your answer would be correct if I was trying to say "you either do that or...". This is not my intention or my way of thinking. What I described was just a natural course for myself. If I can not work on a distro I will have to find another one. This is true for every person. It is true for you too. It is not a threat. By no means.

Could you pls explain the difference between this and what I wrote?

Do you care for the users or only for the developers? I think you care for the users, otherwise we would not be here. So if indeed you care for users you do not have to follow of course what they ask for. But at least you should listen what they have to say.

Yes, if I (or rather packagers like obgr_seneca) would not listen to you,. then why did we reply to your post? But A) listening is not the same as acting to a request, and B) it has been explained that Mageia does not have the manpower for the request, and C) whatever you do as community project - you will nerver be able to cater to all different needs and preferences. You have to make decisions based on reality. What great luck that there are many other distributions (Oh, I start repeating myself). Wouldn't it be a shame if every distribution would supply the same?

[atsol]

Of course you are. I only started with Linux in 1995 and have been part of communities since then.. So your experiences are surely way ahead of mine.

Indeed, you are young.

Could you pls explain the difference between this and what I wrote?

How about polite?

it has been explained that Mageia does not have the manpower for the request

This suffices.

[wobo]

How about polite?

Ah! Ok, now we could discuss which is my understanding of "polite" and where I did not meet your understanding of "polite".
If according to your understanding I was not polite enough then it was not in the least intended. I did not know that you are so much older than I am (you must be way beyond 70 then).

[martinw]

Gnome-shell (or hell) should be considered a bug by normal and power users.
Personally, If Mageia does not support a desktop like mate (cinnamon is not good enough, it still has many problems, say with adding applets to panels) I will have to abandon my preferred distribution (Mandriva, and now Mageia) for another one.

It is just impossible to do serious work with gnome-(s)hell. And it is not accidental that even Linus stopped using that.

I personally share your dislike of GNOME Shell. But this is not to say it is unusable - it just doesn't match my ingrained work habits.

However, I have now updated all my machines to Mageia 2 beta 2, and am using GNOME 3 in fallback mode. Apart from not being able to automatically start applications when I log in (and I'm sure I could find a way to do this if I was really bothered) and having less themes to choose from, every feature I used in GNOME 2 is present and working.

So what is it that makes GNOME 3 unusable for you?

[Scyer]

Personally I'm giving gnome 3 a fighting chance for once. Honestly, its not that bad once you give it a little bit of a chance, and then use advanced settings (I've seen gnome even pushing this tool. Its insanely useful, too.). However, the extensions need work. They break a little too often because of all these revisions and gnome 3 changes. However, gtk3 themeing seems quite intense compared to the gtk2 themes among other things. My only gripe right now is a lack of an easy way to change windows (An extension would likely change that).

To note: I would never have imagined I'd be able to stick with gnome 3 for more than 5 seconds, much less the day or two I've been comfortably using it. (now that it doesn't look like ass and has a different icon theme). Sad thing is that most gnome3 themes have pisspoor gnome2 themes packaged, so when you switch gtk2 themes look like ass (There are a few good ones, though!). All in all...the transition is easier than KDE4, but I can see the same sort of growing pains. I'm willing to stick with the gnome 3 vanilla release for the moment. Not just because I'm getting more comfortable now that I'm understanding its workflow pattern, but because if we DON'T stick with it...it'll never get better. It sounds idiotic to be used as beta testers like this, yes...but...thats part of open source. Things feel "right" for you because people like you stuck out the long run and forced their opinions on changes down the devs throats (note: If you're USING IT while doing that...they're more likely to listen. Just ditching it and yelling "I WON'T USE IT" won't get them to do it because for all they know you won't come back anyways >.>)

Also I'm surprised how little the 3D acceleration requirement affected the performance of WINE and the like on my system. Now if only i could get the live USB to boot on my tablet.

[doktor5000]

Now if only i could get the live USB to boot on my tablet.

Kinda offtopic here, but your tablet is probably ARM-based, and not Intel/x86-compatible. But please open another topic for that.