The problem with Free DVD

[wobo]

varrin sums it up nicely and I agree that we can find some way to improve the situation. What you quoted is torn out of the whole content. Everybody agrees to that one sentence. But you try (again) to paint a picture of Mageia which is not true. What is your problem?

The difference between free and non-free is common sense and agreed by everybody. Handing out different ISOs with and without non-free contents has been done for ages before. This issue was discussed at the beginning here at Mageia. I'd very much appreciate you'd read the comments in those discussions before posting.

[dubigrasu]

But you try (again) to paint a picture of Mageia which is not true.

While you try (again) to paint a rosy image of it, which is also not true.
My problem is that this community thing is a bunch of hot air and a sore disappointment.
Users are lead to believe that their opinion matters while the truth is far from it.
Everything is already decided.

The situation was already summed up before that before varinn, thank you very much. I know what the content is, I've been around this topic to see it deflating to no results.

[wobo]

Thank you for your opinion.
Of course you have all the rights in the world to post your opinion as everybody else, but you may understand that I have a question: What are you doing here anyway if you are so confident in your picture of the (quote) bunch of hot air and a sore disappointment (unquote)?

BTW:

I've been around this topic to see it deflating to no results.

If you are following the discussion (in the bug report and the mailing list as well) you should see that we are honestly trying to improve the situation. "deflating to no results" is not even close to reality.

[dubigrasu]

What are you doing here anyway if you are so confident in your picture of the (quote) bunch of hot air and a sore disappointment (unquote)?

...............well, that's a good question.
Maybe because I still hope for the best.

[wobo]

Maybe because I still hope for the best.

Well, as much as I understand that hope is important, it is nothing when you don't try. Calling this project "a bunch of hot air", regarding this discussion as "deflating to no results" and your picture of "noone up there is listening" is neither true nor helpful. I sincerely hope that this style (which I remember well from the Mandriva forum) does not enter this forum.

[dubigrasu]

No.
I call hot air this claim that users are listen to, not this Mageia project.
Yes, unfortunately that is a good description: "deflating".

I sincerely hope that this style (which I remember well from the Mandriva forum) does not enter this forum.

Is all connected, maybe because this I'm so disappointed.
I was very glad to hear that Mandriva devs are starting Mageia, I thought...hey, maybe it was the company that enforced somehow the silence and the disregard towards users. Now, without the company there will be nothing between us. Or so I thought.

Sorry I can't be here making happy faces and nodding in agreement.

[wobo]

I see. Well, it may be you don't have the time to read much of meeting logs, mailing lists, forums. So it is understandable that you have a very different picture than the one I have.
You know from former Mandriva times that "silence" is not one of my best features, especially if I think something is going the wrong way. So, what makes me see Mageia in such a positive way, very different to you?

Again, you see those who you claim "not listening" being part of the discussion in the bug report and the mailing list. I can't see any reason for your negative impression. Could it be that you still divide the participants in "them" and "us"?

[dubigrasu]

Yes you're correct, I read only what is happening in the forum and bugzilla. I can imagine you having a different perspective while following the mailing list discussions.

Could it be that you still divide the participants in "them" and "us"?

I didn't at first, but sadly I do now, like in Mandriva times.
My feelings are not influenced by this specific issue (which eventually/hopefully will be fixed since is so much fuss around it) but by the general impression I get at bugzilla watching the interaction between users and devs.

[wobo]

Yes you're correct, I read only what is happening in the forum and bugzilla. I can imagine you having a different perspective while following the mailing list discussions.

Well then, which perspective is correct, the one with less information or the other one? In our time of multiple sources of information it is not easy to withstand the persuasion of sticking to one source alone. Understandable, not to overload with information and (of course) because of lack of time. But would you build your political opinion on Fox News alone (I know people who do)?

Could it be that you still divide the participants in "them" and "us"?

I didn't at first, but sadly I do now, like in Mandriva times.

Hmm, then tell me, am I "they" or "us"? Is obgr_seneca or doktor5000 or misc or boklm or germ or isadora or....: "they" or "us"? For me there is a division, too. "Us" is everybody who contributes with his time, his feedback, his development and packaging skills, his help for others, and any other way to help the project improve and prosper. "They" is everybody else.

[dubigrasu]

Well then, which perspective is correct, the one with less information or the other one?

He he, that's a good subject to argue upon.
Lot of discussion could give one impression that something is happening when in fact that's all to it; discussions.
I think bugzilla is a good place to follow the summary of those discussion and not be (like you said) overloaded with information. Sometimes a distant perspective is a good perspective.
I don't know about Fox but I would call bugzilla a reliable source of information.

[doktor5000]

Well, don't take this personal, but talk is cheap. If you want it done, make up the nonfree addition to the free iso
and integrate them in a sane way in the installer, then send your patches to the mailing lists. The perceived problem that
nothing is happening in your eyes is that currently there are more pressing issues. First we need to create bootable distro
media which are free from bigger bugs, then we can see what we can do about new features and stuff.

You know, dividing by "them" & "us" is really unfair here, saying that "they" do the decisions and don't hear your
words or don't consider your proposals makes me sad and angry. So if you can't contribute to the realisation of your
proposal, may i ask you just to be patient and wait for it and don't behave like some troll? That helps noone IMHO.

[dubigrasu]

First of all it wasn't my proposal.
Secondly, if you don't like people having different opinions and making you angry, go to church and bask in agreement.
If you get angry by reading other people opinions then you have a problem.
Everyone is entitled to his opinion, good or bad and is entitled also to freedom of speech even if the speech is unpleasant to your ears or your beliefs or is not what you would like to hear.

[wobo]

Freedom of your speech and having the right to post your opinion - both were not touched in any way. You have made your point clear enough by using un-misunderstandable words. Now don't deny the Doktor the same right to use as clear words for his opinion. BTW: If you read carefully I said the same as the Doktor, just with other words.

Well, I've said my words as friendly as I could.

[dubigrasu]

Now don't deny the Doktor the same right to use as clear words for his opinion.

Absolutely, exactly, disagreements are to be expected in a live forum.

Well, I've said my words as friendly as I could.

That's what makes you such a fine diplomat.
I appreciate that.

[doktor5000]

Actually it's more about your attitude to all this, and it makes me more sad than angry. You're only evading the topic at hand by
that bogus "free speech" argument, i've never said something about your opinion or something the like. That is just childish.
It's about unjustified opinions (wrong or not doesn't matter here) and these people arguing without doing anything for what they are arguing.
You know, we work our asses off in our spare time, and now and then some people come along and yell:
"Ahh, you're all lazy, nobody pays attention to us users, why is (insert your favorite wishlist item here) not realised yet ..."

You think that's the right attitude which is helpful in making people work on new features or proposals? Then please go on and wait for the result.

[dubigrasu]

You are overreacting and over-blow the proportions of things I said.

[isadora]

Well, let that be it for now.
Everybody back to business.

[ruel24]

Let's get this straight... So, when you install Windows from a disk, what do you do? Many devices have no built-in support in Windows. As a matter of fact, Windows built-in drivers are mostly for antiquated hardware. Therefore, you'd be in the same situation. Everyone just assumes Windows is like it is when it comes preinstalled, but it isn't. Windows is a very bare bones OS, in fact, when it comes to hardware support right out of the box. The problem is that most users will never actually install Windows, and don't grasp that.

[doktor5000]

Windows is a very bare bones OS, in fact, when it comes to hardware support right out of the box.

That was back in the days, with Windows 7 normally you get all your hardware supported out-of the box.
Like for my laptop, bluetooth, wireless, I/R receiver, sound, graphics, nothing unsupported.
This is true for all but the more exotic hardware, but most mainstream stuff is supported OOTB.

We should be able to get on par with that, just a matter of integration.

[ruel24]

Wasn't true when I built my system.