Right to remove our own post

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Right to remove our own post

Postby pmithrandir » Mar 27th, '12, 07:56

Hello.

Sometime, you ask a silly question, or something not related to mageia and nobody answer it before you realized your error.

On some forum, we have the right to delete our own post if no answer comes after.

Do you think we could allow that here too ?

Thanks,
Pierre

PS : I see that here I can do it, but in networking section, it was not permitted.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby obgr_seneca » Mar 27th, '12, 09:02

I would not like that.

I think even if you ask a stupid question or find the solution before anyone answers, it would be far better to post your own solution. That might help others who could face the same problem.

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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Mar 27th, '12, 12:47

That's what I added to the thread in question.

Furthermore it may be misused and it may confuse readers of a thread when a follow-up to that post relates to something in that post. It is the same issue as with time-to-edit, but on a higher level.

For transparency sake posts should not be removed at all, except for duplicates, pure spam or illegal contents. This should be restricted to Global Moderator privileges.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby doktor5000 » Mar 27th, '12, 18:57

As far as i remember from some mailing list discussions, this is legally not allowed in France, where Mageia.Org is originated. If you post something in a public place like a forum, then you lose your rights on this, but i'm not sure on the exact conditions, but i'll get somebody who knows more about this to comment here.

EDIT: Ahh, seems it the exact opposite, it's permitted in France, and even obligatory if the user demands it (to be able to remove anything he posted), so i was told by Romain.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Mar 27th, '12, 19:29

doktor5000 wrote: it's permitted in France, and even obligatory if the user demands it (to be able to remove anything he posted), so i was told by Romain.

Yes. I suppose it will not happen that often but if a user insists on erasing his posts (based on the French law) then it will mosttly be in relation to leaving the forum. In that case the Officials can erase both (user and posts) with one click in the ACP.

For normal reasons I'd prefer not to erase any posts as written in the previous post. But it's not my decision at all, only my opinion.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby doktor5000 » Mar 27th, '12, 20:25

wobo wrote:For normal reasons I'd prefer not to erase any posts as written in the previous post. But it's not my decision at all, only my opinion.

Same for me.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Mar 28th, '12, 08:27

It sure looks stupid if someone removes his posts with a lot of given answers. That is rude towards the community members. Since they can be edited there is no reason to "demand" them to be removed.
But there are exceptions:
Sometimes there clearly is a medical diagnosis behind a post or a lot of alcohol (and can we rule out black magic? :D )
In these cases of temporary or permanent insanity the posts should be removed regardless of if they were answered to. But that again is a typical Admin/moderator job.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby pmithrandir » Mar 28th, '12, 08:34

If you check the right on the forum, there is 2 different case :

In the section :
- You can delete your post if nobody answered it.
- You can't remove the post if there is an anwser
- You can edit your post all the time.

In help section :
- You can't delete the post if somebody answered it
- You can't delete a post if nobody answered it
- You can edit you post when you want.

My wish is just to have the same rule everywhere, and to be able to delete my post if I found them stupid after 25 seconds.(You know when the process of explaining the problem give you the obvious answer ruight after clicking on the "Submit" button.
If there is any answr to the post, you can't remove it of course.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Mar 28th, '12, 11:31

I agree +1
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Mar 28th, '12, 12:03

pmithrandir wrote:In the section :
- You can delete your post if nobody answered it.
- You can't remove the post if there is an anwser
- You can edit your post all the time.

Yes, this is the forum permission of your group. It depends on which section it is and which group you are in (most users are in the group "Registered users"). See as example the display of rights when you are not logged in (group "Guest"), there you have almost no rights at all except reading. .

In help section :
- You can't delete the post if somebody answered it
- You can't delete a post if nobody answered it
- You can edit you post when you want.

This is the generic answer to the FAQ about editing and deleting of a post in the forum. I admit that there should be a hint in the FAQ that these general rules are subject to settings of group and forum permissions.

As you can see there can not be the same rules in the FAQ and in the section.

and to be able to delete my post if I found them stupid after 25 seconds.(You know when the process of explaining the problem give you the obvious answer ruight after clicking on the "Submit" button.

Who decides whether it looks stupid or not? Even if you find the solution is obvious, there may be another user who does not see this obvious solution and who will be thankful if you do not remove the post but write a follow-up like "Stupid me, found this solution right after sending the previous post. The solution is: ...." As you see from your initial post (which you regard as stupid), this happens.

In general I would not like anybody starting to judge any post (no matter by whom) as stupid or not stupid. IMHO there is no such thing as a stupid post.

This is not about limiting your rights but rather to help others - there are no questions stupid enough to be removed, all are worth to be answered, somebody may be happy to find it.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Mar 29th, '12, 13:17

Who decides whether it looks stupid or not? Even if you find the solution is obvious, there may be another user who does not see this

The one who wrote it - of course. It must be his choice if he activly wants to contribute in that way - or not. It is not up to you or me to decide that what he considers to be an error or stupid, should stay anyway.
He should have patent on that intellectual property for at least 25 seconds or for the time the post is unanswered.
I do agree 100% with the rest of the post above.
It may be useful to others to leave it, and there could be the "stupid me" correction giving the answer. And basically no one should be afraid that posts look stupid etc.
But to take away the ownership of the post like that, will not help IMHO.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Mar 29th, '12, 13:44

As I wrote earlier, nobody is taking away anything from the user. Restricting the technical ability to remove a post does not ignore his rights on his intellectual property. If he insists on having the post removed the Global Moderators or admins will have do so. Of course they can also leave a post there which tells that they had to remove a post on demand of the user.

Removing a post is an important issue so the necessity of demanding it from somebody else at least may cause you to think twice about the removal.

BTW: My question "Who decides whether it looks stupid or not?" was a rethoric question, in case you did not see that. The answer is obvious: nobody, because there is no such thing as a stupid post.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby pmithrandir » Mar 29th, '12, 14:06

Hello guys.

i was pointing what seem to be incoherent to me on the forum... no needs to deep too much.

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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Mar 29th, '12, 14:20

Well, I explained this "incoherence" - but I think also an explanation of the underlying reasons of the current settings may be helpful for others as well. Besides, an exchange and explanation of opinions does not harm anybody. :)
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Apr 2nd, '12, 00:40

I would like to thank pmithrandir for pointing this out. It gives us the opportunity for an important discussion.
BTW: My question "Who decides whether it looks stupid or not?" was a rethoric question, in case you did not see that. The answer is obvious: nobody, because there is no such thing as a stupid post


Yes but what you are doing here is a bit of black magic again:
1. You state that there are no stupid posts
2. You, and everyone else must therefore accept this as an absolute truth that further discussions must be based upon.
So the rhetorical question has a known answer - to you (and me also).

In the (extremely unlikely?) case that the poster might disagree with you here; he should have the right to follow his mind.
That's how tolerant I am Image

I think there can be exceptions on certain forums though - but it holds water as a main rule (so maybe we agree).
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Apr 2nd, '12, 10:02

viking60 wrote:In the (extremely unlikely?) case that the poster might disagree with you here; he should have the right to follow his mind.
That's how tolerant I am Image

We have to differ between "right" and "permission". As I pointed out, the user has this right all the time and everywhere in this forum. But it is a right he can not execute himself because he does not have the permission to do so, he has to demand the removal from those who can. They are obliged to follow this demand.

I think there can be exceptions on certain forums though - but it holds water as a main rule (so maybe we agree).

Yes.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Apr 2nd, '12, 11:15

Well the right to activate a site admin or a moderator can be more of a "Beschäftigungsterapie" (Activation therapy) .
If you have the right but not the permission then it is not worth much - and it does not make much sense. Except for in those forums where the posts have to stay - to keep it sensible. It should be kept to an absolute minimum IMO.
Last edited by viking60 on Apr 2nd, '12, 13:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Apr 2nd, '12, 11:44

viking60 wrote:Well the right to activate a site admin or a moderator can be more of a "Beschäftigungsterapie" (Activation therapy) .
If you have the right but not the permission then it is not worth much - and it does not make much sense.

No, it would be an "activation therapy" if this would occur several times per day. But (hopefully) removing a post will be the exception. This makes sense because this is an extra "hurdle" to put more weight on the issue of removing a post. It is easy to click on a button to remove a post. But having to ask somebody else to do it may make $USER think again. And the Global Moderator may be able to convince $USER that keeping the post may be better for all (as we see in the example which started the discussion).

Means: I suggest to remove the permission to remove your own posts from all users (except members of the Global Moderator group). Moreso as this permission is not bound to $USER or $GROUP but also depends on the section. It makes no sense at all having the permission in one section but not in another section.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Apr 2nd, '12, 14:03

I disagree with you after all then. That is a solutions where the chosen few have the defining power. I see no harm in leaving the creator of the intellectual property in charge - as a main rule.
And let the exceptions be in those forums where the post is needed.

You know:
The community distro that trusts the community
Sounds better than:
The community distro that controls the community
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby wobo » Apr 2nd, '12, 15:27

You don't seem to understand.

See, if the user insists on removing the post there is nothing the Global Moderators can do against doing what the user wants.
- it is not "mistrusting the user" because the Global Moderators have no power to override the user's decision
- it is not "controlling the community" because controlling needs power which the Global Moderators not have wrt this issue.

But what exceptions do you mean? What difference does it make in which section I am wrt my right on my intellectual property? You can't have both, pointing at the right on intellectual property and at the same time talk about exceptions.

But honestly:
Anyhow, as I have been overall confused and not at all happy with the chaotic permission situation in this forum from the start, there's no need for me to discuss this further. I read your opinon (agree to some of your points), made my opinion known, that's all I wanted and all Mageia can expect from a user. Decisions about that are not made by me nor am I obliged to like it.
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Apr 3rd, '12, 12:01

wobo wrote:You don't seem to understand.

See, if the user insists on removing the post there is nothing the Global Moderators can do against doing what the user wants.
- it is not "mistrusting the user" because the Global Moderators have no power to override the user's decision
- it is not "controlling the community" because controlling needs power which the Global Moderators not have wrt this issue.

You are a bit slippery here, but Since the Moderators have no influence on the content and no control - It beats me why they should remove the posts while the author cannot - unless it is for therapeutic purposes.
wobo wrote:But what exceptions do you mean? What difference does it make in which section I am wrt my right on my intellectual property? You can't have both, pointing at the right on intellectual property and at the same time talk about exceptions.

A FAQ forum would typically be a forum where the question has to stay or the entire content including the answers of others would have to be removed.

Now lets hear the opinion of others.....
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Re: Right to remove our own post

Postby viking60 » Apr 4th, '12, 12:30

Just thought this through (it happens on rare occasions :D ) and wobo might be right that it does not make much sense to operate with exceptions (a principle is a principle).
In that case I am for a 100% removal right for the poster (holding the principle of trust high). I do disagree with the attitude that begging a more or less speedy moderator should be necessary to make me think again and come to the "right" conclusion.
Or just make me think - I am pretty sure that the implication that members do not think without the intervention of a moderator, is rather misplaced. No big disagreement here, but I will always vote for less bureaucracy and freedom.
Nothing new - just a clarification of my rambling above.
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