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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby maat » Apr 20th, '11, 00:59

wobo wrote:
maat wrote:
ahmad wrote:Bear in mind that a correction could be to fix a typo in a command line, a user reading the topic will execute the command before realising that there's a "I made a typo up there, it should be blahbleh"...
For this moderators will always be available and willing to help :)

How many moderators would you suggest to "employ" to make sure that "For this moderators will always be available"? It will also increase unnecessary noise ("Excuse me, moderator, would you pls correct my mistake?"-"Done"-"Thx a lot" = 3 unnecessary posts).


Oh please don't go that way... you perfectly know that very few people will ask for such changes in their posts (and that a really tiny part of them will try to abuse of it)

So let the answer be just "enough" to that question :p

(and by the way using the report buttong can alert moderators without adding useless posts at all)

wobo wrote:We've been discussing this now for too long already. You offered your opinion, others offered a different view, we are not getting any further by repeating the same arguments. Why not go a step further to solve this issue? What about the repeated proposition to gather experience by setting the time-to-edit to a much longer limit? It's easily done for all users in the admin panel.


yes it's easy... as it's easy to see that those advocating for the change are 3 among 240+ so less than 2% and as always those making noise want to enforce things over those who don't

Sorry guys but for the while i prefer to test and see if the current setup does good. The setup i'm using have brought more good than harm on forums i've set up. So this is not really something for which i can't foresee the result.

And this one does not change from others : 5 to 10 guys not happy with that and 40000+ happy with that or not even noticing.

Rules cannot make everybody happy... but if they contribute to raise people responsibility on the forum and ensure a serious and respectful atmosphere all over there i'm ready to pay the price of having you three being unhappy for a while :-p

if It turns out that i have been wrong then i'd have to pay a beer to each one of you three as a mean to apologize ;)
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby ahmad » Apr 20th, '11, 02:07

But you see, the 5 to 10 guys you mentioned in your example are the ones who'll be visiting the forum at least 5-10 times a week, while a lot of the other 40000+ happy ones may just pop in to ask a question -> get an answer -> not see for the next 2-3 months.

End of transmission for me on this topic, I've stated my point of view more than once, and as it stands it's 4 votes (rda, wobo, jkerr and me) to loosen the tight-to-the-extent-of-suffocation limit vs. 1 vote (yours) that this "will stop trolls".
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby maat » Apr 20th, '11, 07:24

ahmad wrote:...to loosen the tight-to-the-extent-of-suffocation limit...


Thanks to the Lord we are speaking of post edition time limit :D
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby wobo » Apr 20th, '11, 10:06

If you (maat) think that everybody who did not participate in this discussion automatically shares your point of view, nice.
We've offered solutions to test, you did not. So who is enforcing rules from his single point of view?

ahmad wrote:End of transmission for me on this topic, I've stated my point of view more than once

Same here.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby jkerr82508 » Apr 20th, '11, 12:02

maat wrote:if It turns out that i have been wrong

You have hypothesised a problem (which may or may not ever happen) and then set up a rule to prevent it.

Since we will never know if the problem would have happened anyway, it is impossible to assess whether or not your rule is really needed.

Either you are not aware that your position is illogical, or you are being disingenuous.

Jim
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby maat » Apr 21st, '11, 00:55

jkerr82508 wrote:
maat wrote:if It turns out that i have been wrong

You have hypothesised a problem (which may or may not ever happen) and then set up a rule to prevent it.

Since we will never know if the problem would have happened anyway, it is impossible to assess whether or not your rule is really needed.

Either you are not aware that your position is illogical, or you are being disingenuous.

Jim


Your statement would be true if we were playing on the first forum ever launched on the web with no experience of forums ecosystems at all
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby wobo » Apr 21st, '11, 02:35

maat wrote:Your statement would be true if we were playing on the first forum ever launched on the web with no experience of forums ecosystems at all

Each forum is different, if your experiences with forums are so manifold you should know that. But you are not the only one with experiences in this area, I have seen both kinds of forums and we have yet to find out what we will have here. So (and this will really be my last attempt on a solution of this issue), why not give the people a chance and let us find out? The way you are dong this will never tell.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby Ken-Bergen » Apr 21st, '11, 06:19

maat wrote:
jkerr82508 wrote:
maat wrote:if It turns out that i have been wrong

You have hypothesised a problem (which may or may not ever happen) and then set up a rule to prevent it.

Since we will never know if the problem would have happened anyway, it is impossible to assess whether or not your rule is really needed.

Either you are not aware that your position is illogical, or you are being disingenuous.

Jim


Your statement would be true if we were playing on the first forum ever launched on the web with no experience of forums ecosystems at all
Jim's origanal reason for a longer edit time to add information to an old post was as I said mostly invalid but one must have a reasonable amount of time to correct things like commands given in a post without having to turn to a moderator.

Members that abuse the editing privileges will become known to the community and as with any society will be ostracized by their peers.

Please give the members some respect until they prove that they don't deserve it, after all your dealing with mostly adults here not a kindergarten class.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby maat » Apr 21st, '11, 08:01

wobo wrote:
maat wrote:Your statement would be true if we were playing on the first forum ever launched on the web with no experience of forums ecosystems at all

Each forum is different, if your experiences with forums are so manifold you should know that. But you are not the only one with experiences in this area, I have seen both kinds of forums and we have yet to find out what we will have here. So (and this will really be my last attempt on a solution of this issue), why not give the people a chance and let us find out? The way you are dong this will never tell.


So if i undertand well : "please, as we don't know if we are on a sismic area, please don't harden the nuclear plant and let's see if all goes well" :? :twisted:

(you can throw tomatoes at me for this irreverent comparison i deserve it)

I can admit that 5 minutes could be a little bit tight...

People tend to read their posts one last time just after having posted them and then want to change things (or correct the post if they submitted it by mistake before it's fully ready for example). For that purpose 5 minutes is probably enough...

I've set-up 15 minutes to be sure people will not be locked while reworking their posts... 15 minutes allows even to make a full rewrite. Enough to be sure of what you want to say.

Changing things later (says 2 hours) to remove sentences or soften words in not something i'd want to see on this forum.

Of course removing illegal things, or correct commands provided to help is perfectly ok but this will not occur often... so calling moderators for that will not flood them and fullfill the need ;)
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby isadora » Apr 21st, '11, 14:49

isadora wrote:Can it be made possible to edit earlier posted messages?
Message i placed yesterday is not editable today.


Thanks maat for giving some more space for editing.
Don't know the new time-limit will suit my needs in future, but i will report.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby boklm » Apr 21st, '11, 18:03

maat wrote:Changing things later (says 2 hours) to remove sentences or soften words in not something i'd want to see on this forum.

Of course removing illegal things, or correct commands provided to help is perfectly ok but this will not occur often... so calling moderators for that will not flood them and fullfill the need ;)

So you expect this forum to be mostly a trolling forum with angry people editing their posts all the time to hide what they said 2 hours ago, with this occurring much more often than friendly people trying to help each other and editing their posts to correct mistakes ?

I hope this will be rather the opposite. With very few people abusing the edit function.

And even if it can happen, I'm not sure people softening their words afterward is such a big problem that we should do anything to prevent it. At least, it looks like a risk we can take for some time to see what happens and how often it happens.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby maat » Apr 21st, '11, 20:18

And the other way we dont take risk at all with no noticeable side effect (just a handful of guys trolling in this very topic)

:p
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby boklm » Apr 21st, '11, 20:35

maat wrote:And the other way we dont take risk at all with no noticeable side effect (just a handful of guys trolling in this very topic)

Hmm, saying that people annoyed by this is not a noticeable side effect, or that people who don't agree with you are trolling is not very nice.
Is it what you call a "serious and respectful atmosphere" ?
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby wobo » Apr 21st, '11, 22:51

maat wrote:And the other way we dont take risk at all with no noticeable side effect (just a handful of guys trolling in this very topic)

Maat, pls think again and change your attitude and style as admin. I am not used to keep on participating in an environment where I am called a troll because I don't share your opinion (as everybody else in this thread).
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby maat » Apr 21st, '11, 23:14

wobo wrote:
maat wrote:And the other way we dont take risk at all with no noticeable side effect (just a handful of guys trolling in this very topic)

Maat, pls think again and change your attitude and style as admin. I am not used to keep on participating in an environment where I am called a troll because I don't share your opinion (as everybody else in this thread).


generally these policies are discussed among moderators and admins... i chose to explain and got exactly what i should have anticipated.

My fault.

A good lesson (re)learned the hard way.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby wobo » Apr 21st, '11, 23:48

maat wrote:generally these policies are discussed among moderators and admins...

I think you will have to learn some more things - especially that such requests of users are issues to be discussed with those who make the request, not somewhere in hiding between moderators and admins. At least this is the way I know it from the forums I participated, the way I handled it as admin (although I was the owner and could have acted like you), and the way I think is the only way to be in a community forum. So your fault was not the fact that you discussed this issue with those who made the request.

Think about what this forum is: it is not a private forum where the owner could do as he pleases. It is the forum of the Mageia community with all its users including you and me. This involves also the right of the community to change such minor issues - even greater issues. Lest you think that the community is not able to decide such things...

Of course I could be wrong and it is your forum. In this case, thx for all the fish.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby maat » Apr 23rd, '11, 22:36

Users do not take well the idea of having rules to respect. That's the way users are. True on forums and nearly everywhere.

Users want the liberty to do whatever they like and find many ways to praise for it. And afterwards some abuse of the given liberties. That's the way users generally are. True on forums and nearly everywhere i think.

In forums, and in some others areas, we need to reconcile the irreconcilable : in one hand the aspiration of users for maximum freedom and in the other the need to ensure enough rules to keep the place just and fair so that these very same users can stay without harming each other or degrade the overall mood and so that they can enjoy discussions in an atmosphere of respect and courtesy. Like sysadmins must ensure security rules, strong passwords, no system shell for all users on servers and so on to avoid personal info being stolen or servers being tampered with. And like project board must define and enforce rules to avoid the project falling into chaos.

Having users praising for less rules is not really surprising... what is much more unexpected is to see sysadmins or mageia founders, iow people who are supposed to fight against chaos in other parts of the project and whom one could expect to understand very well the need for rules choose to go against that and to throw a spanner in the works of forum team...

Very unexpected indeed... while i can't imagine this being done with harmful intent i'm still unable to get how your position can be logical or good for mageia project.

So you'll understand that i can find all this a little bit disturbing. :?
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby ashledombos » Apr 23rd, '11, 22:54

in fact there are two things:
- A technical standpoint, with several defensible points of view, but a decision to take eventually.
- An admin who has a lot of criticism for a decision that has, imho, nothing that much aberrant.

I think we should first try to give a feeling of cohesion to newcomers. People coming here will certainly just feel immature that flamewar is about to start on such a debate.

I then support Maat who prefered to discuss this issue publicly because it's his way of thinking, ant because that he trusts the community, i would like the community to trust him, please.
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Re: edit question

Postby maat » Apr 23rd, '11, 23:05

notice : topic welcome topic splitted as this "debate" is not the best image of the project we can show to welcome users...
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Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby wobo » Apr 23rd, '11, 23:31

... what is much more unexpected is to see sysadmins or mageia founders, iow people who are supposed to fight against chaos in other parts of the project and whom one could expect to understand very well the need for rules choose to go against that and to throw a spanner in the works of forum team...

This quote above shows that you haven't understood much of this discussion. So let me say it in short sentences:
1. Nobody here said anything against rules.
2. Nobody insisted on doing away with the time-to-edit restriction altogether after seeing your strong advocacy of having this restriction.
3. We tried and suggested a solution between the strict limit you are insisting on and a more relaxed start - to be easily tightened if needed.

As a quote from earlier in this thread says:
wobo wrote:So, as much as I value your reason, maat, pls do value other people's reasoning as well. Rules must be, that's right. There are rules which are important and should not be weakened, like the rule of friendly behavior. But this time-to-edit limit is something which can be discussed (what we are doing here) and we should find a way for all. Let us start with a limit which should be ok for everybody (let's say 12 hours) and see where this takes us. We can always tighten or lessen this or even forget a limitation at all, based on the experience we will make. With the current time-to-edit limit we can not make any experiences at all.

(emphasis by me for the sake of stressing point #1)

Is this in any way against the values of the Mageia project as you are hinting?

@ashledombos:
Nobody here wanted a flame war, I see some enthousiasm and insisting but no offensive behavior - unless calling people with different opinions "trolls" goes as such unwanted behavior (which it does in my book).

Trust has nothing to do with this. Trust is not something you need in this context, what you need here is transparency and open mind for other opinions; collaborating, not commanding; finding solutions together.
Last edited by wobo on Apr 23rd, '11, 23:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby wobo » Apr 23rd, '11, 23:33

Oh? What happened?
The whole thread has vanished without info where it was moved to?

EDIT: so this post is obsolete
Last edited by wobo on Apr 23rd, '11, 23:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: edit question

Postby maat » Apr 23rd, '11, 23:36

notice: merged...
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Re: edit question

Postby maat » Apr 24th, '11, 00:14

12h and no limit at all is really the same thing

you perfectly know that anger and violence does not last more than a few hours.

Even 2 hours does allow to calm down and edit harmful words you've said and you dont want the world to keep track of !

So asking for 12 hours is just the very same thing as asking for no limit. Very far from a balanced proposal.


Edit: typo
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Re: edit question

Postby wobo » Apr 24th, '11, 00:48

How big are the chances that even within a couple of minutes nobody reads something you wrote in an international forum with users from all time zones? So, writing something bad and hoping I could change that to friendly words later without anybody noticing it does not work anyway.
The real problem is with the user who thinks he can get away with that - he could change his words but chances that somebody else quotes him before are great, and he will lose his reputation anyway. So, changing bad words is the dumbest thing a user can do, time limit or not.

That's the main reason why I don't think your reasoning is valid. You are putting a restriction on the 99,9% of users who behave just because of this single user who would be caught anyway. This has been said earlier.

See, leaving the tight restriction in place bears no chance to change it for the better. But relaxing a bit bears the chance to relax it even more or tightening it if needed. Starting with a reasonable time span bears chances for both sides, proving that you are right (then tighten it) or that we are right (then relax it some more). This has been said earlier.

So, what would you prefer? Give the users some trust in advance (what ashledombos claims for you) or give them the restriction without trust?
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Re: Welcome to the Mageia-forum

Postby boklm » Apr 24th, '11, 03:12

maat wrote:Having users praising for less rules is not really surprising... what is much more unexpected is to see sysadmins or mageia founders, iow people who are supposed to fight against chaos in other parts of the project and whom one could expect to understand very well the need for rules choose to go against that and to throw a spanner in the works of forum team...

Very unexpected indeed... while i can't imagine this being done with harmful intent i'm still unable to get how your position can be logical or good for mageia project.

So you'll understand that i can find all this a little bit disturbing. :?


That's a very strange view of mageia project. Stupid Users trying to bring chaos versus Super Power Admins enforcing laws.

Actually there is several things I really don't like in what you said in this thread :

  • saying to people in this thread that you don't care if they're unhappy about this change

  • saying that people who don't agree with you are trolling

  • considering that users don't want rules and will abuse any liberty given, and that we should not give them a chance. That's not very respectful for users. And I also don't like how you always talk about users vs admins.

  • trying to punish people who wrote something bad, by preventing them to remove what they said for "the world to keep track of". We can ban people who are abusing rules, but I really don't like the idea of doing something specifically to punish them. Saying "i want people to carry the burden of their words" does not look very friendly and I don't expect this kind of sentence to create "an atmosphere of respect and courtesy". And by the way, people can still use anonymous accounts so they don't have to "carry the burden of their words".

  • saying that you should not have discussed this with users but only with admins/moderators. And the "i chose to explain and got exactly what i should have anticipated", really sounds like "I should have anticipated that users are stupid".

  • deciding this alone, when everybody in this thread disagree. When there is no reason to not do what was proposed (do a test with 12h or 24h, and see if there are problems). This is supposed to be a community forum, not your forum where you can decide everything alone and need not care about opinion of other people ...
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