edit question

[isadora]

Can it be made possible to edit earlier posted messages?
Message i placed yesterday is not editable today.

[maat]

Can it be made possible to edit earlier posted messages?
Message i placed yesterday is not editable today.

Well we could give a longer time to let people edit posts. But i'd rather have people carry the burden of what they said.

For example : when you post on a mailing list you cannot edit what you said afterwards

Now the time is enough to allow people to read back their posts and change a few things like typos or explain what they meant... but 3 days after there is no reason to allow on a common basis to edit the posts.

(Of course if there is a good reason to have a post edited afterwards you can ask a moderator )

Unlocking that would allow trolls to post horrible things, let flamewars grow and then erase their posts and run away.

(Perhaps it's a little bit short atm... we'll watch to see if this needs to be extended without raising unpleasant issues)

[isadora]

Thanks for the explaining answer.

[maat]

You're welcome

[chenxiaolong]

Would there be a tutorials forum, for example, that would always allow editing? It would make sense to be able to edit a tutorial to cover new versions of Mageia. For all other forums, I agree that people should carry the burden of what they say.

[maat]

Yes, allowing edition on a tutorials would make sense... you're right

(though some people i know may howl of outrage as tutorials must be written in wikis and not in forums in their opinions)

If people want tutorials here and if there are volunteers to write them (and maintain them) i guess that i'll have to create a dedicated group like "Mageia documentation writers" and find a way to allow them to edit the tuturials

[wobo]

(though some people i know may howl of outrage as tutorials must be written in wikis and not in forums in their opinions)

It's not misled in stone where tutorials have to be But there's some advantage in having them in a wiki - may be that's why all open projects I know do it in a wiki.

Of course, nothing prevents people writing tutorials in the forum but would it not be a waste of ressources, having documentation and tutorials about the same topics in two places? Isn't there even the danger of having different contents on the same topic, thus confusing users?

[jkerr82508]

Now the time is enough to allow people to read back their posts and change a few things like typos or explain what they meant... but 3 days after there is no reason to allow on a common basis to edit the posts.

Just what is the time allowed? I returned to a post that I had made, less than an hour earlier, to add some information, and found that I could not edit it. That IMHO is ludicrous. This is not a mailing list! Frankly, I'm not sure I want to post in a forum that gives me less than an hour to correct or clarify information that I have given. I don't agree that there is a need for a limit, but if there must be one, then I suggest that it should be at least several hours, not minutes!

An hour or two from now, when it's just possible that I may no longer be in "grumpy old man" mode, I won't be able to edit this post to make it less harsh.

Jim

[wobo]

An hour or two from now, when it's just possible that I may no longer be in "grumpy old man" mode, I won't be able to edit this post to make it less harsh.

Although I agree with you when it comes to a more convenient time span for editing my own posts, this last reason you give may rather be a reason in favor of a very short limit.

The fact that you can't take back what you said is a reason for much misunderstanding and quarrel in Real Life. In a forum altering a post is helpful in many situations but it also may result in a chaotic thread. Imagine you reply in a grumpy unfreidńdly way and your opponent does so the same way. Then you change your post to a somewhat more laid back attitude, the prro reader of the thread will not understand your opponent's post.

Here we have a better option: use the "save draft" feature. It is never a good thing to reply to a post when you are in grumpy mode, I learned that myself in more than one occasion. Now, in such a situation I'll write the most heated return but I will save the draft, not sending it before a couple of hours or even a good night's sleep. This has improved my communication a lot, although sometimes I forget all about it

[jkerr82508]

I'm always in a grumpy mode! I rarely post anything other than information. I don't come here to chat or argue but to help, as much as I can, other users. Sometimes I realise that information that I've given may be unclear, and I like to correct such a post, for example:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=45#p534

I've never seen any evidence of what you say could happen, but you've probably seen more forums than I.

As I said, I'm inclined to just avoid posting here. I'm not prepared to go through hoops in order to help other people.

Jim

[Ken-Bergen]

Jim, the person asking for help will rarely reread your earlier edited post as he's already tried that.
It's much better to just make a new post with the corrected information that he probably will read.

[wobo]

I've never seen any evidence of what you say could happen, but you've probably seen more forums than I.

Not more needed, just one: the international forum of Mandriva. You can easily find some nice examples of what I am talking about.

As ken already wrote, people tend to look forward, not back, so editing is not so helpful when it is done long time after the post was written.

Anyhow, we all have to jump through one or another hoop all the time as long as we are in a public environment. What you regard as convenient may be a hoop for somebody else and vice versa.

[ahmad]

Still, IMHO, a you-can't-edit-your-posts limit of a couple of hours is reasonable.

[ahmad]

Another point is, I've seen in many forums this principle stated many times
“Don't post twice, if no one posted since your last post, just edit it instead of making a new/separate post”.

This would be impossible here.

I think the editing-my-posts-limit is too restrictive at the moment, and it should be relaxed a bit; the idea is not to give trolls/wrong-doers a chance to do much damage/disturbance, but in the same time no need to piss off users.... :)

I think a 2-3 hours limit isn't bad. (Just my 0.02€ worth).

[wobo]

I think a 2-3 hours limit isn't bad. (Just my 0.02€ worth).

Yes, that's what I meant with "a more convenient time span for editing".

[maat]

the limit is not written down in marble... we'll see over a mid term period of trial if this needs to be relaxed or not

something like six sigma permanent improvement scheme

[rda]

More people asking for a longer delay than advocating for the other way around, setting the time limit to one full day (24 hours) and see how it goes from there sounds sensible.

It doesn't harm and adaptations can be made if there is some abuse (apart from authenticated users, not likely) or further request (not likely either).

[maat]

Really few people complained compared to the number of registered people. And those complaining are also those admitting that they need to soften later their words... so that they have all comfort : using harsh words on the moment without having to moderate oneself and after soften the words so that they don't let too heavy footprints on the ground.

I dont know how to translate french idiomatic sentence "le beurre, l'argent du beurre, le *** de la crémière et rester pote avec le crémier"

When i say i want people to carry the burden of their words i target exactly those behaviors.

And that's just what i want to avoid. People who know that they will not be able to soften their words later will moderate themselves, and if you call having to behave gently "going through loops" then i'm sorry to loose a potentially talented guy but for users having people barking at them when they have a problem and softening words 2 hours later to make evidence disappear will do a lot of harm to mageia community.

That is precisely what i don't want : here courtesy will have to be the absolute rule even in heated discussions

=> 2 hours later is far too relaxed in my opinion

[ahmad]

Really few people complained compared to the number of registered people. And those complaining are also those admitting that they need to soften later their words... so that they have all comfort : using harsh words on the moment without having to moderate oneself and after soften the words so that they don't let too heavy footprints on the ground.

Sorry, that's just not true. And that's not the reason jkerr complained at all:

Just what is the time allowed? I returned to a post that I had made, less than an hour earlier, to add some information, and found that I could not edit it.

(Emphasis is from me), did you read this ^??

Also, IMHO, jkerr's post wasn't harsh at all, i.e. I don't see anything in it, that's rude....

More over, I stated my reasons clearly enough (please, read my previous post again).

This is the first time I see such a limit about editing ones' own posts, and I think I've been to many forums.

I dont know how to translate french idiomatic sentence "le beurre, l'argent du beurre, le *** de la crémière et rester pote avec le crémier"

[...]

When i say i want people to carry the burden of their words i target exactly those behaviors.

And I am almost sure, some people will be rude to others no matter how tight forum editing-one's-posts-limit is.

FWIW, one of the most rude/annoying/trollish forum participant in a forum I used to visit had the stupid habit of creating several consecutive posts in the span of less than 1-2hours, instead of editing his/her post and adding whatever it is they wanted to add, even though no one has had the time to post after them yet; a tighter-than-reasonable limit may lead to just that.

And that's just what i want to avoid. People who know that they will not be able to soften their words later will moderate themselves, and if you call having to behave gently "going through loops" then i'm sorry to loose a potentially talented guy but for users having people barking at them when they have a problem and softening words 2 hours later to make evidence disappear will do a lot of harm to mageia community.

That is speculation on your part, that is not the reason jkerr complained about the time limit at all (please, read his post again).

FWIW, jkerr is one of the most straight forward no-non-sense forum posters I've ever known, not once have I seen him insult a user in the past 2-3years in the Mandriva forums (and I visited that forums almost every day for a long while). His history there clearly shows that your insinuations of irresponsibility is just speculation (and tall order at that) on you part. (Not that he needs vouching from me).

Also, kindly note that is not your decision alone; other people in charge of Mageia websites have spoken their mind, rda, and he suggested a 24h limit.

That is precisely what i don't want : here courtesy will have to be the absolute rule even in heated discussions

Exactly! (maybe you should follow your own rules a bit more :), instead of insulting others).

=> 2 hours later is far too relaxed in my opinion

Far too tight-more-than-is-needed in my opinion.

[maat]

There's been no insulting post (yet) at all on this forum (including mines and your last one on this topic ahmad)

While jkerr could be (and i think he is) honest saying he just hopes to add valuable information later in his posts (though adding a new post could be enough) there are too many trolls out there waiting.

I understand perfectly your concerns (and i suspect also you're making yourself devil's advocate partially for the fun of it ) but if you've been on many forums you've found that their teams have to face the problems i target sometimes (more often than not) without success.

ahmad, if you've been on many forums, i also have a tiny experience as a forum user and a rather long one as a forum admin (i've been admin of boards far far bigger than mandriva's) instead of speculating in the opposite direction (without more evidence than your feelings and particular cases that you present as representative of general case) please juste try to trust me when i say that's effective and just harass me when you need to update a post

So that i'll see how much post-15-minutes-editions are frequent and needed for our forum users

(btw you're perfectly true : rda could force me to soften the rule without much effort... but i hope he will no use force )

[ahmad]

There's been no insulting post (yet) at all on this forum (including mines and your last one on this topic ahmad)

While jkerr could be (and i think he is) honest saying he just hopes to add valuable information later in his posts (though adding a new post could be enough) there are too many trolls out there waiting.

Yep, and such a rule will not stop them, they'll just create consecutive/useless posts and they'll even be justified "Hey, I couldn't edit my post to add some info".

I understand perfectly your concerns (and i suspect also you're making yourself devil's advocate partially for the fun of it ;))

Absolutely not, I am not in the habit of wasting my and others time just to have fun...

but if you've been on many forums you've found that their teams have to face the problems i target sometimes (more often than not) without success.

ahmad, if you've been on many forums, i also have a tiny experience as a forum user and a rather long one as a forum admin (i've been admin of boards far far bigger than mandriva's) instead of speculating in the opposite direction (without more evidence than your feelings and particular cases that you present as representative of general case) please juste try to trust me when i say that's effective

My feelings aren't a big factor here, and the evidence speaks for itself :)

There will be trolls no matter which way you want to put it, and such a measure will have no big effect. A troll editing his earlier posts is just as bad as a troll who creates 5 posts per topic and pulls the I-can't-edit-my-posts excuse, his posts will simply raise the noise-to-data ratio in the topic.

(Curiously, does MLO forums have a similar limit?).

and just harass me when you need to update a post :)

That is called "restrictive", and you won't be online 24h. :)

So that i'll see how much post-15-minutes-editions are frequent and needed for our forum users

Bear in mind that a correction could be to fix a typo in a command line, a user reading the topic will execute the command before realising that there's a "I made a typo up there, it should be blahbleh"...

[wobo]

Well, maat, you gave reasons for this short time-to-edit restriction:

1. people writing bad things should not be able to erase them later.
As somebody with some years of experience in forums I can state that I have seen cases like this (in the Mandriva forum as well as in MandrivaUser.de). But very very rarely. Such people tend to forget that especially in very lively forums their posts will be read seconds after they send it away and they can't deny what they wrote - by denying/erasing they will show clearly what kind of user they are.
So, in the end erasing a bad text will only add to their bad reputation.

2. ??? More reasons?

So, as much as I value your reason, maat, pls do value other people's reasoning as well. Rules must be, that's right. There are rules which are important and should not be weakened, like the rule of friendly behavior. But this time-to-edit limit is something which can be discussed (what we are doing here) and we should find a way for all. Let us start with a limit which should be ok for everybody (let's say 12 hours) and see where this takes us. We can always tighten or lessen this or even forget a limitation at all, based on the experience we will make. With the current time-to-edit limit we can not make any experiences at all.

[maat]

Bear in mind that a correction could be to fix a typo in a command line, a user reading the topic will execute the command before realising that there's a "I made a typo up there, it should be blahbleh"...

For this moderators will always be available and willing to help

[wobo]

Bear in mind that a correction could be to fix a typo in a command line, a user reading the topic will execute the command before realising that there's a "I made a typo up there, it should be blahbleh"...

For this moderators will always be available and willing to help

How many moderators would you suggest to "employ" to make sure that "For this moderators will always be available"? It will also increase unnecessary noise ("Excuse me, moderator, would you pls correct my mistake?"-"Done"-"Thx a lot" = 3 unnecessary posts).

We've been discussing this now for too long already. You offered your opinion, others offered a different view, we are not getting any further by repeating the same arguments. Why not go a step further to solve this issue? What about the repeated proposition to gather experience by setting the time-to-edit to a much longer limit? It's easily done for all users in the admin panel.

[ahmad]

Unintentionally (believe it or not), now I have a reason to edit my previous post because I screwed up the quote tags... :/

Now I should go alert a mod to edit my post to get them right? wouldn't that be a waste of his time? and wouldn't it be much easier if I did the editing, since I know what I said and what I was quoting in my post?