edit question

[House]

...it is your forum.

Well, that's really the core question, now isn't it?

Whose forum is it?

Does the forum belong to the Community, to the contributors who make it what it is? Or is it the personal fiefdom of an autocratic ruler?

The quality of the forum as an information resource is compromised by anything that interferes with:

- correcting misinformation
- adding new information
- clarifying existing information
- marking a thread as SOLVED (!)

It's worth noting that the folks who have objected to this seemingly arbitrary rule account for fully 20% of this forum's content.

That's not a typo: 20%--not 2%.

If the most productive Mageia developers, accounting for, say, 20% of commits, felt strongly about some aspect of their version control system, I strongly suspect that their preferences would prevail. They most certainly would not be labeled "trolls" for voicing their preference. It seems to me that this forum should operate on exactly the same principles.

Mageia leaders have publicly stated that Mageia is built on the principles of "people first" and trust in the community.

I submit that what we have here is a conspicuously offensive violation of Mageia's fundamental principles.

Ultimately, the greater question is: Does this page actually articulate the core values of Mageia? Or are they just high-sounding, but utterly empty, words?

I for one will watch with interest to see how Mageia's leadership responds to this egregious violation of the distro's core values. If they do nothing, then I fear that Mageia is little more than Mandriva misspelled.

[juergen_harms]

Why not go a step further to solve this issue?

It's Easter Sunday - how about making it a gift to forum participants? (but dont hide it!)

[isadora]

notice : topic welcome topic splitted as this "debate" is not the best image of the project we can show to welcome users...

Well done Maât, this topic slightly changed from it's original intent.

[maat]

You're welcome isdora...

For the rest guys i still dont understand your being so agressive.

You ask for a test... Why not testing the current values and see if there are issues with it or not ?

With 12h (which is technically the same thing as no rule) we will never know while with the current value people needing a late edition will ask for it and we will able to measure how much this is used and needed

Then if we have so much demands that moderators are flooded that will mean that I've been wrong (and that we need to relax the value to make late edition something exceptionnal)

for the "solved" issue a mod will be added to fill the specific need and for remainng late edition moderators wii be there to help

By the way Mageia uses massively mailing lists that publish the content of your posts publicly and there you don't have at all the ability to proceed to late edition

And nobody complains so my conclusion is that this is not an absolute requirement

having the possibility to tweak your posts during 15min is a "plus" and after moderators can still help

I don't see where in this coud be a problem (except for moderators that could find the task tiedous if they are too often called for that)

[wobo]

You ask for a test... Why not testing the current values and see if there are issues with it or not ?

With 12h (which is technically the same thing as no rule) we will never know while with the current value people needing a late edition will ask for it and we will able to measure how much this is used and needed

Then if we have so much demands that moderators are flooded that will mean that I've been wrong (and that we need to relax the value to make late edition something exceptionnal)

Quite to the contrary. Nobody (with a few exceptions) will call moderators for change after a while because it's additional work (for the user and the moderator). People will get accustomed to not be able to edit and errors will stay in the posts. While with a testing with hours for editing we will see very soon if users are so malvolent as you say.

But I see, you keep insisting on your point of view although almost all participants of this thread have tried to find a solution for all.
This was definitely my last post on this matter here.

[maat]

Well this is not fair : you have reproached me to anticipate users behavior and there tha's exactly what you do : anticipate their behavior saying they won't call for help

This forum is very young but we yet we had several examples that contradict this statement:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129&p=777#p777
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=20&p=89#p89
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75&p=488#p488
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=66&p=600#p600

And with time i guess things will stabilize with people getting used to call for things important enough and to drop unimportant things (like typos)

[maat]

Well if we keep on our positions on this matter neither you and us can be happy.

In such cases we need to find an other completely different way to deal with the problem.

Now the points of view expressed by posters here state we need that :
-- People of goodwill can late edit their posts
-- Trolls can be caught and neutralized even if they cheat

If we can find such a converging way i guess everybody will be ok with that...

[Ken-Bergen]

Well if we keep on our positions on this matter neither you and us can be happy.

In such cases we need to find an other completely different way to deal with the problem.

Now the points of view expressed by posters here state we need that :
-- People of goodwill can late edit their posts
-- Trolls can be caught and neutralized even if they cheat

If we can find such a converging way i guess everybody will be ok with that...

maat, take a look at the Mandriva English forum http://forum.mandriva.com/en/
67104 members with unlimited time to edit their own posts and only one moderator.

The problems that you're trying to prevent by hamstringing everyone rarely happen and when they do the community catches it and chastises the offending member. If they persist the moderator is notified and if they don't heed his warning they are banned.

What could be simpler?

Ken

[maat]

I wonder if i'd have taken this one as an example given that we just forked Mandriva

[wobo]

Well if we keep on our positions on this matter neither you and us can be happy.

Ok, you got me hooked:
1. Who is "we"? As far as I can see you are the only one with your position in this thread.
2. We (those "trolls" you pointed at, aka active members of the community) made several attempts to suggest a solution between no-time-to-edit and unlimited-time-to-edit. Your claim that 12 hours are equal to unlimited is not valid, neither in maths not in reality. If I post something bad today and sleep on it and wake up with a different mood those 12 hours are gone.

[wobo]

I wonder if i'd have taken this one as an example given that we just forked Mandriva

Well, you would have contradicted your own reasoning.
Ken gave the perfect example that there is no need for this no-time-to-edit, that your main reasons are not valid.

Oh, in which way is the the forking of the distribution related to this topic?

[maat]

Mandriva en forum = 67k members for 430k posts = a mean of 6 posts per member.

And for that : 15 moderators, 6 admins (5 of them are also moderators)... so definetely not ONE moderator

for the rest...

[Ken-Bergen]

I wonder if i'd have taken this one as an example given that we just forked Mandriva

If your attitude of mistrust of the community exhibited in this thread extends to other areas of Mageia I for one will be looking for greener pastures.

Why not take your paranoia one step farther and have all posts filtered by you before being committed?
If you find an un-dotted I or an un-crossed T the post never makes it to the forum.
Yep, that's it, problem solved.

Ken

[Ken-Bergen]

Mandriva en forum = 67k members for 430k posts = a mean of 6 posts per member.

And for that : 15 moderators, 6 admins (5 of them are also moderators)... so definetely not ONE moderator

for the rest...

15 moderators on the English forum?
Of those you see awilliamson was terminated in 2008, Ahmad_Samir tried it for a few days and resigned but still both listed as moderators.
I have no idea of how many others are no longer active but what I see is Germ and occasionally AshLeDombos keeping the forum civil but mainly Germ.
If Germ can keep 67104 members acting civilly caring for 257 members should be a walk in the park for you.
So I would suggest you climb down from your high horse and start treating the community as a friend rather than as the enemy.
After all without the community Mageia will wither and die.

Ken

Edit: I'm only talking about the English part of the Mandriva forum not all languages.

[boklm]

If your attitude of mistrust of the community exhibited in this thread extends to other areas of Mageia I for one will be looking for greener pastures.

Fortunately no, what I've seen is not the same on other areas of Mageia.

[Ken-Bergen]

If your attitude of mistrust of the community exhibited in this thread extends to other areas of Mageia I for one will be looking for greener pastures.

Fortunately no, what I've seen is not the same on other areas of Mageia.

Yes I know.
What I find puzzling is that the founders other than WOBO have not tried reigning in this Tin God.

Ken

[jkerr82508]

If your attitude of mistrust of the community exhibited in this thread extends to other areas of Mageia I for one will be looking for greener pastures.

Fortunately no, what I've seen is not the same on other areas of Mageia.

But this forum is all that most users will see. The impression given by this thread is that the near-unanimous opinion of users can be overridden by the opinion of a single individual, based solely on what he claims to be his experience (an experience apparently shared by no-one else).

There is a word we use to describe societies that operate in this fashion and it is not a word that I would want to see used to describe of any aspect of Mageia.

I am sure that we are all grateful for the hard work that maat has done in bringing this forum into being, but none of us has individual ownership rights over what results from our respective contributions.

Jim

[maat]

Then in due end you'll have what you want : illimited edition time

You'll not take me away from the idea that this is not a good thing for forum and community : when people know they'll have to assume their statements they tend to self-control and self-moderate much more. The consequency is : better chance for courtesy and better general mood (and less flametopics to deal with for moderators) in the long run

You ask for something that is likely to make globally things harder for a a tiny profit... and my belief is that community is more likely to get harm than good from it.

But since you seem determined to go through with this story without giving the smallest credit to what I said you will eventually succeed.

But I still find a way to promote self moderation without that

[isadora]

Never had expected, as original poster, that such a small issue could grow to
such extends.
For me actually not such a big issue. and i can live very well with just a
short period of being able to edit my posts.
Most of the time editing for me is just for cosmetic reasons. Which means that
just after hitting the button to post a message, i discover any textual issue,
which i like to get reset. Or like having forgotten bringing in a link into a
message or such.
Revisions of a message can always made in follow-up-messages, i think.

And one more thing: my personal idea about security is to grant rights/options after good considerations.
And if it is necessary to have discussions about, then that means people are thinking about what they are doing.
That, in my eyes, is much better then giving all free way, and pick up the pieces, when damage is done.

[ahmad]

Never had expected, as original poster, that such a small issue could grow to
such extends.

Indeed, such a small issue shouldn't:
- have taken all this time to get what the wide majority agreed upon to be applied
- have taken 5-6 different people (most of whom do care about Mageia the project as a whole, since they put in the time from the word "go") arguing all this time to get something like that absurd limit changed.

But, were all those arguments about just one tiny small issue? IMHO, no it isn't at all; the problem here isn't just an editing-one's-own-posts-time-limit, the issue, as it became clear a long way up the thread is maat's attitude... that whole "holier than thou"-I-know-more-than-you-so-shut-up-and-don't-argue stance which I don't see how someone who's supposed to be a forum admin/mod can take to begin with.

Imagine going through a similar ordeal every time someone has a different opinion/point-of-view other than Mr. maat, will we have to argue for another week to get a new separate forum? or to merge two forums into one? or to change a banner somewhere? God, I hope not!

I think we should first try to give a feeling of cohesion to newcomers. People coming here will certainly just feel immature that flamewar is about to start on such a debate.

Well, there's being transparent on one hand and the shut-up-and-take-it-and-be-happy-so-that-newcomers-don't-think-the-forum-is-immature.... I'll take being transparent any time, any day of the year.

And here's a snippet from the "how _not_ to start a flame war 101":
- Do _not_ call others trolls just because they happen to disagree with your point of view
- Do _not_ assume (you know what they say about "assume"?) that a user is "irresponsible" if you don't know him well, especially when he hasn't done anything irresponsible
- Do _not_ call someone a devil's advocate because he disagrees with you.

Looking up at that list, all those things were done by... guessed yet? by a forum moderator, part of whose job is to _not_ have flame wars. :)

[maat]

I feel obliged to give, not to rational arguments and the force of logic, but under the pressure of 5-6 persons claiming to represent the vast majority (6 / 250 = 2.4% of forum where the community at large is still something else).

Obviously you'll succeed in due end. But again I think it is likely be to the detriment of the forum, its users and the community.

Too bad for us all if i'm right.

[wobo]

I feel obliged to give, not to rational arguments and the force of logic, but under the pressure of 5-6 persons claiming to represent the vast majority (6 / 250 = 2.4% of forum where the community at large is still something else).

So you claim to represent those silent 243. What is your reason for that?
You can only count those who actually expressed their point of view, that makes 6 / 7 in favor of our opinion.

Too bad for us all if i'm right.

No damage at all even if we will find out that you are right. If so the rule can easily be changed. But then the restriction would be based on facts and proof, leaving no room for future discussions of this kind.
As it is now the restriction is based on nothing else than your "I''ve seen it all" assumptions. Don't you understand that?

[maat]

So you claim to represent those silent 243.

Dunno how you came to that assumption but this is wrong.

[rda]

Guys, let's cool down.

This is a new forum for a new project. There have been other forums and other projects alike, so there are some stats available on typical use cases. So maat's arguments are not absurd.

On the other end, it's a small start for yet a small collaborative project and like in any new endeavour, what gives the boat's direction is not past experience but will, expectations and experiments. What will make it float and move forward is how the crew can work together. While some debate, others take to the sea.

Here, what's at stake is not so much how the edition delay setting affects the convenience to post/fix messages on the forum (and the potential amount of disruption in conversations consistence), but how we/you cooperate to resolve a disagreement on such an issue.

No need to call each other by names, it doesn't help. Both sides have their arguments, however one side is the forum admin, other side is several users. So there is obviously a conflict.

Either it happens here in a proper way, either it doesn't - and it should then be escalated to the Council (during a regular weekly meeting or in an extraordinary way) to be resolved.

So now, let's get practical. How do we solve this very issue? (non exclusive solutions)
a. push the edition delay further (let's say 6 hours, should cover ~ above the 90th percentile by maat's argument) and monitor potential disruption that would require lowering this limit (this is for all forum users, not only moderators, to watch out about this) - this favors user convenience at the cost of providing larger options for disruption/vandalism in conversations - provided this would actually occur;
b. version post edits
c. ?
d. drink and party
e. cool down and make it clear that conflicts/disagreements, if not solvable at some point, must be escalated (without any rage, that would be just how things happen) to be mediated/decided by the Council or the Board in last resort.

One of the points of the Mageia project is to be naively optimist toward people first. And adapt afterwise. So (a.) is not out of question per se; (d.) neither. Maat seems eager to implement (b.).

(/me hopes not to have to edit this post )

[wobo]

So you claim to represent those silent 243.

Dunno how you came to that assumption but this is wrong.

Isn't that obvious? This works in both directions.
We are not claiming to represent anybody but ourselves, each of us, including you. So it is not 5 or 6 against 250, it is 5 or 6 with the same opinion against one's opinion.

But as rda wrote, it's about time, we could have long gone moving forward to a practical solution as we suggested several times already.