Mageia forum

Would it be possible to split the beta releases into somewhat more downloadable sizes and components? Maybe one for gnome, one for kde, and one for LDXE and the rest.

It also may / should help with further debugging as if a problem appears in one only, it should make tracing a 'bit' simpler as those specialists would only need to 'deal' with their own.

My primary reason for asking for the split, is that being on satellite, anything above 1.5gig usually either dies or ends up corrupted, even if torrented.

I do admit that I am NOT interested in either KDE or Gnome, being 'otherwise' minded I'd love one without them, but containing LDXE and the windowmanagers listed.

My intention is to at least build jwm2, Razorqt with qlwm, and maybe qvwm to see if mageia can be 'extended' into other areas, especially as you seem to have gstreamer down pat. These will of course be released to your community after some level of debugging.

regards and keep up the good work

scsijon

There should be live cds available again in the near future, for KDE and GNOME, and also the dualarch CD, which contains LXDE.
Other than that, you can always use network installation: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Installation ... k_Installs

There will be no other releases so far, there are just not enough people for quality assurance. If you feel you'd like to help,
take a look at https://wiki.mageia.org/en/QA_Team or https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Contributing

Be very careful with package selection if you do the network install. Despite de-selecting KDE and choosing LXDE, despite checking to make sure no KDE packages were pre-selected for the custom install, I still managed to finish up with KDE as the default desktop.

I'm not saying that being careful will prevent KDE from wasting your bandwidth and time, but whatever way you decide to go I would be interested to hear if KDE is there when you finish.

Richard

jaywalker wrote:Be very careful with package selection if you do the network install. Despite de-selecting KDE and choosing LXDE, despite checking to make sure no KDE packages were pre-selected for the custom install, I still managed to finish up with KDE as the default desktop.

I'm not saying that being careful will prevent KDE from wasting your bandwidth and time, but whatever way you decide to go I would be interested to hear if KDE is there when you finish.

Richard

I've just tried to do a minimal LXDE-only network install, and got the same as you - KDE was installed despite being deselected.

doktor5000 wrote:There should be live cds available again in the near future, for KDE and GNOME, and also the dualarch CD, which contains LXDE.
Other than that, you can always use network installation: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Installation ... k_Installs

There will be no other releases so far, there are just not enough people for quality assurance. If you feel you'd like to help,
take a look at https://wiki.mageia.org/en/QA_Team or https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Contributing

Thank you doktor, it is hoped that it is so. The dualarch iso is of interest, of a size that should not give me download problems, I shall be awaiting it's release. I shall also check your QA and Contributing pages and add my name there. Being from both SuSE and puppy linux worlds, network installs are not of interest.

Another question if I may:
Do you have a package owner page anywhere? ie each package has someone responsable to monitor or 'own' it, we have it in SuSE and with puppy it can be found out in packages part of the forum. It allows notification of updates/where they can be found, or requests for an update.

For jaywalker and martinw:

You did try dropping back to a linux shell prompt (no x11server running) and restarting the x11server with LDXE, the KDE should just have been legacy components if it is the main desktop/wm for Mageia, as it seems to be, and therefore should then be uninstallable if overall size is a problem, leaving LDXE starting automatically on next boot.


If I wanted to I could build from source or assemble from your mga packages, and I may eventually do it this way. We learn to do this using puppy linux's woof builder. I prefer to download all the packages I want and build / assemble and debug offline, it's safer and allows an intermix of sources and package re-engineering to keep sizes down.

I'm also not interested in static packages. I've found over the years that sooner or later the install or removal of a package with static components will break another. My personal opinion is that they should be banned, it's not that hard to add a couple of extra packages if they are not already there or need updating, it just means the 'human' and installation tool must have a little smarts in it.

thanks for the answers given and regards to all
scsijon
update: I have sent subscribe requests to QA_debug and QA_bugs, we shall see what happens!

scsijon wrote:For jaywalker and martinw: You did try dropping back to a linux shell prompt (no x11server running) and restarting the x11server with LDXE,

It was easier than that; log-off KDE, select LXDE in KDM and log back on again. GDM/KDM should remember your last used desktop and retain it as the default for all future sessions.
This was my first ever network remote install. I had selected a fast mirror but I still needed to keep the size of the install to a minimum (no point in dragging in huge volumes of stuff I won't be using and which is made selectable in the installer)

scsijon wrote:the KDE should just have been legacy components if it is the main desktop/wm for Mageia, as it seems to be, and therefore should then be uninstallable if overall size is a problem, leaving LDXE starting automatically on next boot.

It is true that historically Mandrake/Mandriva/Mageia is KDE-centric, but other WM/DE have always been well supported. If anything, M/M/M is now a KDE/GNOME distribution with excellent growing support for Xfce and LXDM.

You are right, it is perfectly possible to completely remove KDE, and GNOME too. Certainly a fully useful LXDE system might well include Qt and Gtk applications, or even some Gnome and KDE apps, but this will not normally require full KDE or Gnome installations.

If you are doing an install from DVD or LiveCD then you can certainly do the post-install uninstall to trim the size but I urge you to beware of the

Code: Select all

 urpme --auto-orphans

prompts you will see in the package manager as you rip stuff out. It might be tempting to believe that the notified packages are indeed orphans, but that is only true for a very special definition of the term "orphan". In the M/M/M context it really means not actually a parentless child, more of a parent with lots of dependent children

If you are really serious about keeping the system compact then by all means examine the orphans list carefully as some of those hundreds (?) of files will indeed be what you would recognise as orphaned. Then you can selectively remove them too.

If you choose to install from LiveCD (GNOME or KDE) then a method I have used is to boot the CD, configure the remote repositories I will need and then install and remove packages until I have what I think I will want. I will also make sure I have all of my hardware properly configured and my user. This has to be done in one session, so anything which might force a re-boot must be avoided (easy enough except for something like a glibc update). When you are happy you have done what you can then use the desktop icon to install the live system on your target drive.

From what doktor5000 says I imagine a reasonable compromise for you would be to use the dual-arch CD. It is available for Mageia 1 right now. But from what you say about your downlink, I would be very tempted to suggest you try the tiny boot.iso (32 or 64 bit available for Cauldron and Mageia 1) and have a go at a network install. I hear your concerns about the size of the download and the reliability of your connection. You didn't say what your best download speed is likely to be or whether your connection is more reliable with many small files rather than one huge image file.

The network install uses the remote server to provide the installation packages in much the same way (though slower) as it would use the same files on a local drive or CD/DVD. If you are quite ruthless in deselecting packages you could perhaps get the install finished in less than 2000 megabytes. That was the approximate size of my network LXDE install, but I'm certain I could have left out many more packages, despite having KDE forced on me. Once you have a working install you can flesh it out when you have the time and energy

scsijon wrote:For jaywalker and martinw:

You did try dropping back to a linux shell prompt (no x11server running) and restarting the x11server with LDXE, the KDE should just have been legacy components if it is the main desktop/wm for Mageia, as it seems to be, and therefore should then be uninstallable if overall size is a problem, leaving LDXE starting automatically on next boot.

As jaywalker said, no need to drop back to the shell prompt, because you can select the session type when you log in. The issue is that the network install took a lot longer than necessary, because it was downloading a whole load of packages I didn't want or need. I think this is a regression - alpha 3 did not install KDE (although I can't be certain, as I never tested a network install with alpha 3).

scsijon wrote:Another question if I may:
Do you have a package owner page anywhere? ie each package has someone responsable to monitor or 'own' it, we have it in SuSE and with puppy it can be found out in packages part of the forum. It allows notification of updates/where they can be found, or requests for an update.

Not actually in that sense, at least not yet. We have http://pkgsubmit.mageia.org/data/maintdb.txt which is the actual representation
of the package maintainers database, it lists all source packages together with their maintainer. Update notification
in that sense are sent via updates-announce mailing list, but not selective, either all or none. And requests for an update are done
as bug reports via our bugzilla: https://bugs.mageia.org

doktor5000 wrote:We have http://pkgsubmit.mageia.org/data/maintdb.txt which is the actual representation of the package maintainers database,

That is the very information which I had been wondering about, thanks dok. At the risk of leading you a little off-topic here, I would just like to mention "sooperlooper".

I know that the time for proposing new packages for MGA2 has passed, but as we now know who is the maintainer of rakarrack and ardour (two somewhat related applications), might it be appropriate for me to contact that individual directly to discuss the feasibility of adding this super looper to his repertoire? I have successfully built this app (1.6.18) on Alpha 3, though it needs a libsigc++ library I had to get from mdv2011.

With some practice and a little guidance which I am sure is available I might even have a go at packaging it myself, though for the sake of its future prospects of longevity it might make more sense for it to join a stable of related applications.

Richard

jaywalker wrote:I know that the time for proposing new packages for MGA2 has passed

From where do you know or assume this? New packages can always be introduced into the distro.

For the other part, you might want to have a look at https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Becoming_a_Mageia_Packager
It links to most other important resources. Anyways, if you want a package, you should file a package request:
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/How_to_repor ... ge_request

doktor5000 wrote:From where do you know or assume this? New packages can always be introduced into the distro.

My mistake. I just assumed that as we are approaching the Beta test phase that there would be a new package embargo for MGA2. I was happy enough to wait for the new Cauldron for MGA3 as it is so easy for me to build it for MGA2.

doktor5000 wrote:Anyways, if you want a package, you should file a package request:https://wiki.mageia.org/en/How_to_repor ... ge_request

OK, so it would be improper for me to try to influence a packager of related programs to take this on as well. I can see that, and I think I agree with you. It is much better to leave these things to "natural selection".

Thanks for the pointer to the packaging info, I'll get a comfy chair and a cup of tea and have a bit of a read now.

RIchard

thank you all, it seems I shall have to spend some time going from page to page and try to understand how the site is laid out.

With puppy, for our application control and feedback, we have created a section in the forum, inside that we have subsections matching our mainmenu plus the usual, Requests, Unsorted, Eye-candy, Virtualisation and Collections & Reposorties. These each have a topic for an application or group, and it's dealt with that way. It doesn't mean the application is available, just that it's name has come up at some time. It did take quite some time and effort to get up and running, but has proven to be well worth it over the last few years!

Also, just to explain the shell prompy comment, I drop to shell as i'm use to a autologin type start. We actually run as root in puppy, but some of the apps can be running as a user, in which case we just link into it. Puppy is specifically designed as purely a desktop, not a server, although there are puppy servers.

I shall await the beta and hope it will be split!

To address the original point of bandwidth, there is always the option of creating a deltaiso for the DVD at each version change. It's probably makes the most sense later in the release cycle when there are fewer changes between each beta release. It's a simple one command process to create or apply the deltaiso.

http://linux.die.net/man/8/makedeltaiso

jaywalker wrote:

doktor5000 wrote:Anyways, if you want a package, you should file a package request:https://wiki.mageia.org/en/How_to_repor ... ge_request

OK, so it would be improper for me to try to influence a packager of related programs to take this on as well. I can see that, and I think I agree with you. It is much better to leave these things to "natural selection".

Well, no and yes.
The package request is so that all packagers can see this, but there's no problem with asking any packager
if he could look into it or help you to build it for Mageia, effectively mentoring you. That is,
if you want to descend into the fiery hells of packaging
EDIT: Whoops, now i spoiled the fun part ...

doktor5000 wrote:if you want to descend into the fiery hells of packaging
EDIT: Whoops, now i spoiled the fun part ...

As a packager you will never imagine the fun we users have seeing a packager burning at the stakes of user requests!
(SCNR!)

Hopefully your packaging processes are as fun as we already have in puppy,

a little pain to start with while you learn the process steps and tools,

a lot of swearing while you get through your first few,

a whole lot of satisfaction when they start rolling out without many bug-reports returning,

and you start 'bending' the system towards your needs and inclines!
---------------
I think i've worked out how to subscribe and set for digestplain for qa-bugs-request and qa-discuss, lets see what happens next!
I've also downloaded and burnt the beta2-wired iso, since they didn't assemble a dual arch CD (hopefully it will happen with beta2 (else if following due process, they should fail the alpha/beta test program)), and it runs, but it will have to await my hours changeover on the 27th to do anything with it. Wouldn't mind either a packagelist and jpg of what I should see, or a url, if someone could oblige.

thanks
scsijon

scsijon wrote:Hopefully your packaging processes are as fun as we already have in puppy,

a little pain to start with while you learn the process steps and tools,

a lot of swearing while you get through your first few,

a whole lot of satisfaction when they start rolling out without many bug-reports returning,

and you start 'bending' the system towards your needs and inclines!

Sure, especially for the pain and swearing Just kidding, after a while it's really fun and satisfactory.

thank you doktor for all your help, much appreciated.

Now if beta2 has a Dual-Arch CD, I shall be able to close this topic off!

scsijon