[SOLVED] The printer installation process is way to complex

[wilcal]

I'd like to open a discussion concerning the process
of installing a printer. To keep the discussion as simple
as possible this has to do with a simple workstation
install. Making that printer available on a network
(CUPS) is another discussion.

And in reference an open bug:

https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3616

Today I was able to install my HP USB All-in-One
printer into M2B1. While the install was successful
it was far from intuitive. Part of the process included
having to reboot the system. During the process there
are many twists and turns and some notifications of
processes that I think would be a little scary for
a novice.

In reference, past versions of Mandrake/Mandriva needed
little, if any, effort. Simply plugging in the printer
USB cable into a running system with a turned on
printer initiated an almost completely automatic
process to get the printer working. After the
process the printer was ready to go. The latest
versions of Ubuntu are not that easy but almost.

So share with us your thoughts as to how easy, or
complex, a process this should be. Possibly removing
the CUPS install during the initial process would
simplify it.

There are almost 90 rpm's installed in M2B1 before
you even get to the HP specific files. Maybe I'm
missing something here but the process to install
a workstation printer in Mageia 1 is difficult
but now nearly so as M2B1.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[dyfi]

I have had to decline from using Mageia in an office environment as it would not install my OKI MB260 Mono printer/scanner. Drivers are supplied by OKI for linux, but not for Mageia . As an alternative OS I have been forced to use a Debian based one which works fine. So, yes, printer installation needs attention!

[doktor5000]

Part of the process included
having to reboot the system. During the process there
are many twists and turns and some notifications of
processes that I think would be a little scary for
a novice.

Could you please at least be more specific what the many twists and turns were and what the notifications said?

[wilcal]

Could you please at least be more specific what the many twists and turns were and what the notifications said?

Sure can. The last few times I've installed printer on Mageia
I've tried as best I can to keep a log of all the steps that were needed.
Here's the log for M2B1. Do note this is not an exacting science
as things can move across the screen quickly. I'll make at least
another install this week and refine the log. Here's the steps:

Mageia 2 HP All-in-one USB Printer install

This is for the HP OficeJet 5500 All-in-one injet USB printer

Computer off.

Printer off, USB cable connected to printer and computer
USB port. Paper loaded.

Boot system to workspace.

Power up printer.

1. Nothing happens

2. MCC -> Hardware - Setup the printer(s)......

Popup window

You are about to install the following software packages on
your computer:

task-printing-server
<install> <cancel>

3. Satisfy dependencies window popup window - OK

4. Packages installation

5. Missing printer driver appears in upper right hand corner of workspace

6. MCC -> Hardware -> Set up the printer(s)

7. RPM installation window

You are about to install the following software packages on
your computer:

-task-printing
-task-printing-hp

Proceed?
<install> <cancel>

8. The following packages have to be removed for others to
be upgraded:

netcat-openbsd-1.89-4.mga1.i586
(due to conflicts with netcat-traditional)
Continue installation anyway?
<abort> <ok>

To satisfy dependencies.....window

88 packages are installed

9. Printing service not available window,

10. Reboot system

11. HP Device Manager
No Installed HP Devices Found
<set up device> <Cups Web Interface> <Close>

Log in as root

Device discovery window select Universal Serial Bus (USB) device
<next>

Finds officejet_5500

<Back> <Add Printer> <Cancel>

12. Reboot system

13. HP Device Manager -> print test page

14. Xsane should recognize scanner and scanner

15. Printer and Scanner now work

[wilcal]

Do note that in the past this is the
process you would see on Mandriva:

Mandriva 2010.2 HP All-in-one USB Printer install

This is for the HP OfficeJet 5500 All-in-one inkjet USB printer

Computer off.

Printer off, USB cable connected to printer and computer
USB port. Paper loaded.

Boot system to workspace.

Power up printer.

Pop-up window indicating the presence of the printer.
A do you wish to install button?
Tapping the install button would automatically install
what is needed to install the printer on the workstation.
Printer and scanner are automatically available immediately.
CUPS is not installed and needs to be using the MCC.

The latest versions of Ubuntu are about the same.

[DShelbyD]

I've always wondered why Madnriva/Mageia do not include the installation of cups during OS installation. It is a major slowdown in configuring a printer to have to wait for all that software to be downloaded and installed when printing seems at least as fundamental as a network connection. Well, almost. Yet there is no option AFAIK to get it out of the way while installing.

[doktor5000]

So basically you want to punish all those users who don't have a printer, needlessly bloating up their installations?

[DShelbyD]

The purpose of this thread is to simplify the process of printer installation. Printer drivers are essential to me, so I am offering a comment that reflects what I perceive to be the oddity of software basic to printing not being included upon installation of the OS.

[doktor5000]

Yes, but you always have to ponder potential advantages and disadvantages of your proposals.

A more proper solution could be to add task-printing-scanning package when you select "Office" group in custom package selection during installation.
That would be a valid enhancement request, best reported as a bug: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/How_to_report_a_bug_properly

[wilcal]

Would it be a good guess that the latest versions
of Ubuntu do not install CUPS when you want
to simply add a USB printer to a workstation?

Seems when I installed my printer on a Ubuntu 11.10
system it went in pretty simply. I don't remember seeing
any CUPs stuff go in. I'm pretty sure that in older releases
of Mandrake/Mandriva the CUPS thing was a separate
process in the MCC.

I'm glad we're having this discussion before release day.

[doktor5000]

Well, i don't know *buntu, maybe they have cups in their default install and only install a printer driver when needed?
Cups is always needed for a printer, so they must install it somehow.

[DShelbyD]

Yes, but you always have to ponder potential advantages and disadvantages of your proposals.

A more proper solution could be to add task-printing-scanning package when you select "Office" group in custom package selection during installation.
That would be a valid enhancement request, best reported as a bug: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/How_to_report_a_bug_properly

Well, ... the last thing I expected in contributing to the topic was a lecture about punishing users, considering the advantages and disadvantages of making an observation, what suggestion I ought to have made in order to be "proper" and "valid," and how to file a bug report. My opinion is that CUPS, the "bloatware," as you seem to think of it, should be a part of the base installation; but that opinion is open for discussion and based on my need to work with documents that from time to time that must be printed. Is that use now "old school"? Is Mageia not intended to be suitable for enterprise purposes where document production is important? Or is it only for "friend-ing," coding, tweaking, and rocking out? And isn't the kernel getting fairly bloated these days? Maybe we should leave it out so as not to punish anyone.

I think Mageia should be useful for printing in a home or business office. It's a philosophical consideration having to do with the purpose of computing as well as a very practical one for me personally. But the OP points out that the process required before using a printer is fairly time-consuming in Mageia. I agree. I have felt that way for a long time, and I have accepted it as a "feature" that =I think= is unique to the two, blood-related distributions. Obviously, though, it is not a deal-breaker. And my reflection certainly is not intended to punish, to take into consideration every implication of itself, or formally to request a change. So far, we're just talking here.

[jaywalker]

I think Mageia should be useful for printing in a home or business office. It's a philosophical consideration having to do with the purpose of computing as well as a very practical one for me personally.

Since we're all just tossing around a few thoughts and ideas, here's my fourpenceworth. In general I agree with your sentiments. However, if we change your "printing" for "sound and video processing" and your "office" for "studio" then you could very well have been quoting me! For my part, I haven't installed my printer for a four years or more. In fact the last time I needed to print had to buy a new printer as the print-head had clogged up. I suspect the next time I need to print, I'll have to throw this one out and get a new one again.

A more proper solution could be to add task-printing-scanning package when you select "Office" group in custom package selection during installation.

I guess that might sound a little better in the original German, but to me it looks like a possible way forward. Personally I would prefer not to have it as an automatic selection as in a "requires" or a "suggest" because it really is a huge chunk of disc space and/or download bandwidth for people like me who may well choose the Office group with no particular intention to commit output to paper. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that task-printing-scanning is an option in the Office group which can be selected.

I have had to decline from using Mageia in an office environment as it would not install my OKI MB260 Mono printer/scanner. Drivers are supplied by OKI for linux, but not for Mageia . As an alternative OS I have been forced to use a Debian based one which works fine. So, yes, printer installation needs attention!

This sort of thing really annoys me too. I have a very low tolerance of manufacturers who think that it should be their way or the highway. I would change my printer, not my distribution, but I fully recognise that is a very personal choice and not one available to everyone. There was a similar situation with an Avermedia hybrid TV/DVB/FM card a few years ago. Avermedia proudly advertised it as compatible with Linux (Mandrake 10.0 if I remember correctly) but made zero effort to support later kernels. I spoke to a man at Avermedia's UK operation and he said they couldn't release free drivers because of third party IP considerations. As far as I could tell the only chip on the card which was not an industry standard commodity device was one branded by Avermedia. A year or two later we all had the first generation free driver for the card so It is now back in use.

I didn't realise that printer drivers are also bound to a distribution-specific kernel. Printer manufacturers must love that. It means they get to decide when you have to pay again for another printer.

[juergen_harms]

Fundamentally I agree with the issue raised: printer configuration needs improvement. In the past, getting the environment working on new releases has very often been a hassle: if I remember right, Mageia 1 was one of the first releases where printing worked more or less from the beginning. The discussion has now advanced from "please make it work" to "please make it more user-friendly".

I have seen the following issues mentioned:
1. printer configuration is a too tedious process, particularly in 1-machine / 1(or 0)-printer configurations
2. could there be a light alternative to the full-fledged cups environment, optimised for sites without distributed printing and at most one printer?
3. it happens too frequently that a specific printer is not supported on Mageia.
More items will certainly appear if there is a large discussion.

How about - rather than filing a bug (an enhancement bug?), how would you formulate it to give it a chance to be successful? - suggesting this in the list of topics considered for Mageia 3?

[doktor5000]

Let's clear this up a bit: The OP pointed out some issues in current Cauldron that need to be surely fixed, but that described process
is not the optimum or known good configuration, which would be that on Mageia 1: Plugin printer, get a popup from system-config-printer systray applet
for adding a new printer, let it install all the packages, and voila you have your printer running. I can't think of how this process can be even
more simplified (left alone the preinstallation of cups+printer driver packages when doing a default dvd install, which would be a valid improvement proposal,
as already mentioned above, that should be reported as a bug).

To clear some other things up: When i mentioned "punishing users" that was merely a metaphor. Also i never said cups or the printing stack is bloatware,
it's just that it would considerably raise the size of a default installation (by like ~350MB on-disk), and it would be forced onto all users (like jaytech f.ex.) so for him the default installation would be somewhat "bloated", or at least that's the term which is commonly used when something has needlessly increased considerably in terms of size. Please be aware that even if it's common to have a printer, not every user has one or wants it installed on all machines he has.


For reference, cups itself without any PPDs or printer drivers is only 8MB on-disk. Which would be the light alternative, it won't support any printer that way,
but it would let you use a remote print server, f.ex.
Many printers need their own drivers, be it from gutenprint, hplip, cups-drivers, they need the foomatic-db, they need custom filters, they need ghostscript,
and many libraries. What can be done is to check and ensure that only the packages relevant to the printer-to-be-installed get installed.
F.ex. i see that system-config-printer in cauldron wants to install task-printing and task-printing-hp, the latter seems unneeded for printers other than HP
ones, but would consume already 250MB alone on-disk. Things like that need to be investigated and fixed properly.

If a given printer is not supported, feel free to open a bug report for that, and assign it to me, i'll take a look then as i care for parts of our printing stack.
But at least take a look before if there's an entry for that particular printer at http://www.openprinting.org/printers and mention the recommended driver and take a look if we already have that one and if it's maybe only a question of misconfiguration or misdetection which should be fixed.

[Garthhh]

Are you saying that the proper procedure for installing a printer is to plug it in to an already running system?
if so that should be in the instructions that pop up during install
Hp stuff is generally well supported, why not mention that somewhere on the home page, along with any other brands that make an effort?

[wobo]

Especially Windows users will like this approach - buy a printer, unpack it, plug it in to power. turn it on, plug it into the PC - Ding! "The device is now ready to be used".
I did that with my HP AllInOne and it worked nicely, including scanner setup and installation of sane. Provided you have a working internet connection at that moment.

I also like the "no printer by default" approach. I have 3 machines but one printer. Do I want to install the whole shabeng on all machines? No. I will use the printer via networking, so cups is all I need.
I also have a netbook, do I want to install any printer software there? No, certainly not.

So, all in all the current approach seems to me the best solution, of course single user's mileage may vary as it will in all such cases.

An improvement could be that in the summary there should be a notice, explaining the printer setup procedure. This place (the summary) seems to me the best place because it is the page where all users will pay attention to.

[doktor5000]

Are you saying that the proper procedure for installing a printer is to plug it in to an already running system?
if so that should be in the instructions that pop up during install

Yes, that has always been the case. Also, the popup does all the installing, why should there be any other instructions besides "please wait"?

[Garthhh]

I had no idea I needed to unplug printers during the initial installation of mageia 1
I'm suggesting there should be some indication of that.
it wasn't hard for me to install my printers using MCC, but it did seem a bit more complicated than plug n pop-up

[wilcal]

Re: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3616
Installing a HP multifunction printer requests hp-setup (hplib)

Note that attempting to install my HP USB printer on M2B2 today
was completely unsuccessful. I have noted such in the above
bug. And remains a very convoluted and complex process.

Maybe doktor5000 can indicate if we should stay with the above
referenced bug report or open a new one.

[wilcal]

Re: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3616

I've done a ground up install of Mageia 2
on a scratch drive here, updated it and
executed an HP USB Printer/Scanner install
and the entire process was completely
automatic. When completed the printer
scanner was immediately usable.

Kudos to Anssi Hannula for a job well done.