Wiki Section on the Forum

[Garthhh]

the official position is that wiki participants are to join the mailing list & show up for meetings on IRC
Certainly one can register with the wiki
login
contribute [forgoing the proscribed formalities]

the forum is public [unlike mailing lists] & less time constrained than IRC

in lieu of a formal section here on the forum I'll start some threads here on other...

[doktor5000]

the official position is that wiki participants are to join the mailing list & show up for meetings on IRC
[...]
in lieu of a formal section here on the forum I'll start some threads here on other...

Huh? Can you please describe what your actual intent or problem is?
No wiki participant is required to join a mailing list or show up for IRC meetings, what are you talking about?

[Garthhh]

that there should be a forum section devoted/allocated to matters concerning the wiki

there is a discussion tab on wiki pages, that isn't really conducive to any communication [no obvious way to effectively follow]

I'm going to contribute & the best use of the limited amount of time I have to spend is doing minor edits & adding content to the wiki

contributors are expected to join the mailing list & attend meetings,
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Web_team
which is a time suck
I've made this clear on more than one occasion,
so I took matters in hand & proposed a solution
I suppose that wiki threads could be
viewforum.php?f=12
this isn't quite right though [there are a few threads that should be moved, but that's a forum admin issue]

there are certain aspects of the wiki that could be improved
you are free to have an opinion, just as I am

[doktor5000]

contributors are expected to join the mailing list & attend meetings,
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Web_team

No, you misunderstood. Team members are required to attend IRC meetings and subscribe to the mailing lists.
If you only want to contribute to the wiki, nothing else is required. For the general matter i've asked the documentation team
to take a look at this thread, should be discussed.

And why do you think the subforum "Basic questions about contributing" should be in the wiki? Or did i misunderstand you there?
Sorry, still unclear what you want to achieve on a greater scale ...

[marja]

that there should be a forum section devoted/allocated to matters concerning the wiki

there is a discussion tab on wiki pages, that isn't really conducive to any communication [no obvious way to effectively follow]

I'm going to contribute & the best use of the limited amount of time I have to spend is doing minor edits & adding content to the wiki

contributors are expected to join the mailing list & attend meetings,
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Web_team
<snip>

there are certain aspects of the wiki that could be improved
you are free to have an opinion, just as I am

Anyone can contribute to the wiki, you don't have to join meetings or subscribe to mailing lists to do that. However, please keep https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Wiki_and_Documentation#Page_naming in mind when you start a page and also, if you import content from somewhere else, make sure that has the cc by-sa 3.0 license, too, and tell from where you imported it.

It is true that certain aspects of the wiki could be improved. You can use Bugzilla to ask for such improvements. Depending on what exactly you ask, web team or documentation team will look into it.

The discussion tab is useful in my eyes.... I receive a mail when someone posts something on the Talk page (discussion tab) of a page I wrote or edited, don't you?

Cheers,
marja

[maat]

We could open an area about general discussions about improving the wiki... but in this case we would need to define precisely what kind of discussions about the wiki shall be done through the forum and what discussions shall be done through native wiki discussion features

We need to be aware that some wiki maintainers could dislike the idea to have discussions in 2 different tools... i know that forums offer a better "exposition" (though mailing lists are really public and discussions archives are available)

The question would be: what kind of discussions about the wiki would really make (better/greater) sense if done using the forum ? And what kind would make (better/greater) sense if done using wiki features ?

And in each case : why ? :p

[Garthhh]

contributors are expected to join the mailing list & attend meetings,
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Web_team

No, you misunderstood. Team members are required to attend IRC meetings and subscribe to the mailing lists.
If you only want to contribute to the wiki, nothing else is required. For the general matter i've asked the documentation team
to take a look at this thread, should be discussed.

And why do you think the subforum "Basic questions about contributing" should be in the wiki? Or did i misunderstand you there?
Sorry, still unclear what you want to achieve on a greater scale ...

I misunderstand the requirements, the text gives the impression more than any other that
Marja linked to a different document
Fair enough

this highlights a different issue
the navigation on the wiki appears poor
there's lots of good stuff, but no way to find it through the TOC [table of contents] on the left sidebar
the search function works reasonably well
I'm looking for tree view
as an example
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Wiki_and_Doc ... age_naming
the header shows me
wiki>>wiki and wiki documentation
there may be a way to navigate to the page before or go up a level, but it's not presented in any of the usual ways one would find on a typical online document

when I go to the main page I would expect to find a TOC outlining all the wonderful content a user would be interested in
what I find is organizational stuff related to development

this
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:Documentation
is some good stuff
the title could be better
User Manual or Start Here comes to mind

I could start filing some bugs, but my understanding is that the bug squad has a full plate [too much work not enough time]
not to mention that input from the larger community may be helpful

the discussion tab feature could be helpful as a collaborative tool to help members working on a section of the wiki
it can just as easily become a black hole that eats useful content [never to be see again]

[Garthhh]

We could open an area about general discussions about improving the wiki... but in this case we would need to define precisely what kind of discussions about the wiki shall be done through the forum and what discussions shall be done through native wiki discussion features

We need to be aware that some wiki maintainers could dislike the idea to have discussions in 2 different tools... i know that forums offer a better "exposition" (though mailing lists are really public and discussions archives are available)

The question would be: what kind of discussions about the wiki would really make (better/greater) sense if done using the forum ? And what kind would make (better/greater) sense if done using wiki features ?

And in each case : why ? :p

Thanks for the reply Maat,
a thread about how to use the wiki would best be had here on the forum, due the greater visibility
a discussion about specific content on the wiki on the discussion tab on the page in question on the wiki, it is a nice feature to have a built in back channel
most of what I wrote in the post above [TOC] are support questions, which I feel belong here.
the devs may not need to be involved [so much work, so little time] the easier it is for members to help, the more likely it is they will

[doktor5000]

Well, https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Special:SpecialPages from the left panel gives access to some pages which list all categories, and lists of all pages for example, if that helps. And i don't understand why an explanation of how to use the wiki should be in the forums, not in the wiki. But if you want to have one, just add a thread for it.

After all i still did not understand what you actually want to achieve altogether.

[barjac]

That page to me is a perfect example of what Garthhh is refering to.
It is all about the wiki and wiki maintainence etc. not about Mageia.
People (hopefully) go to the wiki to find stuff about Mageia - and all they find is wki, wiki and more wiki.
There is a lot of info about Mageia in there but it is difficult to find unless you know where to look.

Newcomers unfamiliar with the wiki will just ignore it as too complicated or not relevant as they don't see a direct path to what they need.

I use it to reference packaging guidlines etc., but I always struggle to find the relevant pages and consequently tend to avoid using it.
In my opinion if you have to explain how to use it - it's broken.

Maybe there should be a clear distinction between the navigation for users looking for information and users updating the wiki - it seems to mix the two at present, to the detriment of the former.

Just my 2 cents..

[marja]

Well, apart from the table not looking nice anymore, what is wrong with the first page you see and the choices you can make there?

https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Main_Page

[wobo]

Well, I just looked at the wiki and the first thing I see is "Mageia Users Community" where "Documentation" sticks out for the new or learning user. Clicking on that page presents a "Newcomers start here" in big letters for the new user and a section below with single topics in alphabetical order. Of course both parts offer much room for improvement (more pages, more contents).

The pages about the wiki and wiki maintenance which are so dominant for you are not so easy to find. So maybe we looked at totally different sites or we have a different understanding of "Documentation" and "Newcomers". To avoid misunderstandings: I looked at https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Main_Page.

@marja: taste differs To me this new screen looks nicer and more inviting.

[Garthhh]

Well, https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Special:SpecialPages from the left panel gives access to some pages which list all categories, and lists of all pages for example, if that helps. And i don't understand why an explanation of how to use the wiki should be in the forums, not in the wiki. But if you want to have one, just add a thread for it.

After all i still did not understand what you actually want to achieve altogether.

I don't understand why navigation on the wiki is not very good

the wiki could be a very valuable resource, which could potentially reduce your work load here on the forum

what I'm try to achieve is more members contributing, to a user friendly, community based distro with meaningful documentation

[Garthhh]

That page to me is a perfect example of what Garthhh is refering to.
It is all about the wiki and wiki maintainence etc. not about Mageia.
People (hopefully) go to the wiki to find stuff about Mageia - and all they find is wki, wiki and more wiki.
There is a lot of info about Mageia in there but it is difficult to find unless you know where to look.

Newcomers unfamiliar with the wiki will just ignore it as too complicated or not relevant as they don't see a direct path to what they need.

I use it to reference packaging guidlines etc., but I always struggle to find the relevant pages and consequently tend to avoid using it.
In my opinion if you have to explain how to use it - it's broken.

Maybe there should be a clear distinction between the navigation for users looking for information and users updating the wiki - it seems to mix the two at present, to the detriment of the former.

Just my 2 cents..

even if one were to find the documentation page, there is no way to read through the sections serially [no next & previous buttons], the only method is to jump back & forth

being that all the online mageia resources are set to take you to whatever page I click on, instead of opening a new tab, it's easy to lose a page you were just looking at, sure one can get used to it & work around it

you can take Dok's view, decide that I'm not doing it right & assume that this stuff is all clear to other noobs
or that the wiki is a tool for the devs

user friendly [along with stability] is still one of the prime benefits of Mageia

[wobo]

there is no way to read through the sections serially [no next & previous buttons], the only method is to jump back & forth

Yes, this is one point where I agree. I saw the same kind of "documentation" on the Siduction wiki (which I installed over the weekend) and it was quite annoying. Obviously they are in the same starting phase as the Mageia documentation.

But as I understood the system you described was planned in such a way. As it is you start with the first link, go back, use the second link, go back, use the third link. Anyhow, I think it would be much more userfriendly to rearrange in the following way (3 steps):

Step 1. Link to "Documentation" not within a text but as a prominent link because it is something different than the rest of the wiki.

Step 2. Initial Page "Documentation": Index of all 6 links plus a 7th (aka chapters, displaying the 7 different pages as Chapter 1 to Chapter 7 (where Chapter 7 would be the alphabetical list of pages as it is now on the documentation page) - so a user can jump to a certain page he is interested in. Each Chapter should have its own index on its page.

Step 3. First subpage with the first chapter, ending with a link to the second chapter's subpage, etc.

An additional page could hold the topics of the MAQeia forum section as some kind of FAQ.

[doktor5000]

you can take Dok's view, decide that I'm not doing it right & assume that this stuff is all clear to other noobs
or that the wiki is a tool for the devs

As you keep coming up with that one, where did i say that you are not doing it right? I've just mentioned that i don't understand what your actual problem is, and what you want to achieve with a forum section about the wiki for example ...

Back on topic, how does Mageia differ in structure and navigation from, say Mandriva Wiki or Wikipedia?
The navigation is not much better there, maybe more categorisation and crosslinks, but that doesn't magically improve navigation.
And when i'm searching something, normally i just use the search function. Where's the problem with that?

[Garthhh]

when you use wikipedia, one is generally looking for one bit of information
Mageia wiki is in some ways a user manual & could be used in a different way
there are never going to be enough devs to write traditional documentation
it appears to be possible to use the wiki

there is
http://doc.mageia.org/installer/2/en/content/index.html
which leaves a lot to be desired as a user manual/help file

there is probably other stuff stuck who knows where?

I sometimes use the search for answers method of problem solving

but if I'm researching an app or function the more old fashion table of contents, makes it easier for my work flow, I'm not alone

I have to point out that

And when i'm searching something, normally i just use the search function. Where's the problem with that?

sure reads like I'm not doing it right in your opinion

[doktor5000]

I have to point out that

And when i'm searching something, normally i just use the search function. Where's the problem with that?

sure reads like I'm not doing it right in your opinion

Well, sorry but i don't know what you read there or how you deduct that. I just told my personal experience, how does that relate to you doing something right or wrong?

[marja]

there is no way to read through the sections serially [no next & previous buttons], the only method is to jump back & forth

As it is you start with the first link, go back, use the second link, go back, use the third link. Anyhow, I think it would be much more userfriendly to rearrange in the following way (3 steps):.......

Garthhh, do you agree with wobo's ideas and would you have time to help with this?

If so:

For a start, to work on your own idea too, https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:Documentation#Newcomers_start_here would have to be copied to a seperate page, to https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Newcomers_start_here because where it is now (in the Category: space) it is impossible to make a nice link back to it.

You can then make links back to that Newcomers start here page and next & previous links, except, of course, for the documentation that is outside the wiki (only one item now, but there'll be more).

To make a "previous" link to https://wiki.mageia.org/en/First_step_with_Linux_and_Mageia use

Code: Select all

 [[First step with Linux and Mageia|previous]]

Next and back links can be made in the same way

Cheers,
marja

[Garthhh]

Fair enough
I'll get on that
in the next few days

[marja]

I'll get on that
in the next few days

Great, Garthhh, thanks

[Garthhh]

For a start, to work on your own idea too, https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:Documentation#Newcomers_start_here would have to be copied to a seperate page, to https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Newcomers_start_here because where it is now (in the Category: space) it is impossible to make a nice link back to it.

You can then make links back to that Newcomers start here page and next & previous links, except, of course, for the documentation that is outside the wiki (only one item now, but there'll be more).

To make a "previous" link to https://wiki.mageia.org/en/First_step_with_Linux_and_Mageia use

Code: Select all

 [[First step with Linux and Mageia|previous]]

Next and back links can be made in the same way

Cheers,
marja

I created the page, but I can't figure out how to include the
Pages in category "Documentation"
from the bottom of the page?

[marja]

I created the page, but I can't figure out how to include the
Pages in category "Documentation"
from the bottom of the page?

That is impossible. You did what you needed to do. You can add a line, that it is possible to see all documentation by clicking on Documentation next to the word Category at the bottom of the page (I just added that category)

Thank you so much for helping with this

[isadora]

...................................................

Thank you so much for helping with this

Just want to join Marja for expressing thanksgivings.
Nice job Garthhh.

[maat]

Nice

Thanks Garthhh