A QT gui project for firefox has been revived

[almusalimalmusalimah]

hello developers

i saw this thing and iam so happy to see it

so .... can our distro developers import it to mageia 2 & 1 repo

here is the link to the alpha version

https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org ... l-linuxqt/

[doktor5000]

No, we will definitely not have two versions of Firefox. Do you know how much work it is to do one Firefox update for the stable release?
Also back in the days when that project first surfaced it was really unstable, not well-maintained and introduced many bugs.

[dglent]

No, we will definitely not have two versions of Firefox.

I cannot understand your replies, it seems that you represent all Mageia community and you give me the impression that you "decide" for everything in Mageia.
Sorry but it is an impression that i have for you and i try to take it away everytime but every time you confirm my thoughts.

Nothing personal, may be is the way that sounds the phrases when are written, or how i tranlsate in my native language (it sounds not kind and friendly at all) but excuse me for that i dont aprove your general attitude in Mageia forums.

I am a contributor, administrator, moderator of the Greek community forum, and my point of view has a minimum value.

i dont want a flame, i dont expect that you proves me that i am wrong, after some time i will come back in my thoughts and maybe i will see that i am wrong but just take in account my intervention.

Thanks, and sorry to be so direct

[wobo]

I cannot understand your replies, it seems that you represent all Mageia community and you give me the impression that you "decide" for everything in Mageia.
Sorry but it is an impression that i have for you and i try to take it away everytime but every time you confirm my thoughts.
Nothing personal, may be is the way that sounds the phrases when are written, or how i tranlsate in my native language (it sounds not kind and friendly at all) but excuse me for that i dont aprove your general attitude in Mageia forums.

I am a contributor, administrator, moderator of the Greek community forum, and my point of view has a minimum value.

And I am a user of Mageia (no need to mention other functions/positions) and therefore I believe my point of view has an equal value as yours. So after reading your personal vew on the doctor's postings let me explain mine:

1. He is a member of the packager team, so he has the necessary technical information to back his posts.
2. He has been acting like some kind of bridge between the technical section (which is present mostly in the mailing lists) and this forum here, taking his time to explain issues and decisions taken for technical reasons to those who are not on the same technical level. Mind that the doctor is not giving his personal opinion if he tells things like the above, he rather forwards the point of view and decisions of the technical team. If other packagers would post here they would say the same.
3. His posting style is friendly but firm. Surely he could have written something like "No, I am afraid it will be not possible to maintain 2 versions of Firefox because we are not enough people to do so.". But the issue of manpower and resulting limitations has been written all over the forum again and again, so I am surprised that it seems to be necessary to mention it once again. But as you see he did not just post this one sentence, he also added an explanation why it is not possible. I would not regard this as unfriendly or whatever you wrote.

This is surely not meant to be offensive, just my point of view on the doctor's postings.

[doktor5000]

No, i don't represent all Mageia community, and surely i don't decide anything alone in Mageia, left alone everything ...
I've asked our Firefox maintainer about this, and he was open to it, under the impression that this firefox-qt project is of a good quality
and can sometime in the future replace normal firefox. But that's not the case, that project was rather infamous in the past for
many bugs, instability and in general it was not on-par with normal firefox, for example you could not print, which would be a major drawback, no?
I've packaged it in the past, and so can back up my arguments with facts and experience, it's also not really my personal opinion, but just technical conclusions.

Also, to give you something to think about, if we're already at it, i'll tell you the same i've told the forum user who i packaged firefox-qt for at mandrivauser.de:
(yes, i've packaged firefox-qt just because one single forum user asked for it)
Just because something is technically viable, doesn't mean it's reasonable to do that.

On the other hand, as you're also in our packaging mentoring program, why don't you whip up a firefox-qt package, if you're interested in that, so that it gets some testing? What most forum users seem to forget, is the fact that somebody needs to spend time if you do any proposals or requests, so in general you should always ask yourself in an open source project: Who will do the work for the item i'm requesting/proposing? Just posting in the forums "Please, i want this program/theme/new feature" and thinking "surely the developers would like to implement this for me" just doesn't fly. That's what most people forget, we're now a comunity, there's no difference between "us" users and "them" developers. We're all on the same level, and we should also try to behave like that. So if you have a problem with someone else, just tell him.

Otherwise my answer was rather short (mostly my answers are rather short, or one could also say affective), as it does consume much of my spare time to write an answer which explains all details and the train of thought, and all the implications and the reasoning and stuff like that. Mostly afterwards this draws me into a discussion, which costs me even more time, in which i could give support to somebody else, do some packaging or documentation, which just seems more effective to me.
Generally i try to forward reasonable user requests or proposal or even support problems to the developers, which costs even more of my time but i still think that's what we need, more communication. But actually now i can really comprehend why most developers and packagers just avoid the forums ... *sigh*

Related, but if you can't understand my postings, and if you put up such an accusatory tone in your post, why don't you just ask me for the reasons WHY we can't have firefox or whose opinion i represent with such a statement or just tell me that you have a problem with my posts in general beforehand?

EDIT: As you already got me started, let me share my personal opinion about this particular request. Actually it's a really good example how not to do a proposal/request. First, it's done in the totally wrong place, no developer will read this. Either ask the question "can our distro developers import it to mageia 2" (for Mageia 1 no new packages can be added, there are only exceptions for packages that were available for Mandriva 2010.2 and are not yet in Mageia 1) in the way it's currently written in the appropriate place, either as a package request via bugzilla or as a mail to mageia-dev mailinglist. The next problem with it, is that it gives no reasons why we should want to have this. You should always list at least some advantages/improvements it brings (maybe also some drawbacks, if you're a fair person) and what possible results could be, if you do this in the forums.
Because if i asked this question after last time i packaged firefox-qt, the main answer from the forum user who requested this was "because it allows for rounded corners".
Also, why should we want to import this, and spend much time to maintain it when you can already have a working build of it directly from Mozilla?

So please, always think of the consequences and implications of your actions and words.

[dglent]

For the program about, i dont know it , i dont want it, i dont want to ask anything about it. I wrote my remark about a not friendly and not kind attitude that i have seen from your part in the answers, like a forum dictator or better an one guy distribution. If it was nt something that makes me to avoid participate to the forum, i would never speak about my thoughts. But i cannot accept to not participate to my from years distribution's community just for one person, so i decided to talk about it.

My point of view is from a user side but from a administrator side too. For example, after my experience as administrator of the Mandriva Greek community forum, i decided to the Mageia forum to not apply different colors for admins, moderators etc. Is something that automatically gives another weight in each member replies, positions etc. So everyone is equal. The actual moderator asked me to have a different color and i told him that i want to see if there is any difference in the member experience. Until now, after some discussions everyone things that it is the biggest positive difference between the Greek mageia community and others (ubuntu, or communities with other than linux forums)

So as i see that you and wobo you are the persons that spend the most time in the Mageia's community forum i would preferred that old, new, future members feel warm as like at home. (something that i did nt felt here, at least until now)

[dubigrasu]

Well, I think that our doctor is a very intelligent and busy man who is easily put off by nonsense (or what he perceive as nonsense) or futile endeavours based on a whim. Since diplomacy takes time to be used (time he does not have) his answers could sound harsh indeed.
I also had this impression of underlying tension in some of his replies, and felt he could used some small doses of the above mentioned diplomacy, but considering the huge amount of work is doing for us I think is an acceptable trade off.

The thing is that The Doctor is always here to provide an answer to all kind of questions, even to the stupid ones.

[doktor5000]

Well, for the most part my answers are rather factual and short, so they may sound harsh, but that's really not my intent (but if you've done nearly ~15.000 forum posts, countless mails and IRC sessions over time just doing support/troubleshooting, you would behave similar, believe me) If someone was harmed by that, or doesn't feel well, please tell me so i can excuse myself personally. I've even apologized to other people in the forums before, even if it wasn't my fault, only because they asked for it. If there are more people that are disturbed by that posting style, feel free to notice me and i'll stop posting in the forums. If you don't want me to give support here or act as a bridge to the developers or documentation team, feel free to tell me, then i'll stop doing that.

@dglent: If you run/moderate/administrate a forum, you're doing something that has to with public communication. So how can you expect me to change something which you haven't even noticed me of or which i'm not aware of? That sounds quite strange to me, you don't like my posting style, that's why you stay out of the forums. Why not just tell me before you stay out of the forums? Sorry, but i can't read minds and my crystal ball is quite foggy, if it comes to nontechnical stuff.


On a related note, this part of the thread consumed nearly an hour of my time, and no actual result, other than keeping me from doing support/packaging.
But if you feel this is helpful and it's better this way, sure, why not.
*sigh*

[marja]

@ dglent

Thanks for telling us about things we are not aware of

Does

No, we will definitely not have two versions of Firefox.

still sound so harsh to you after the explanation doktor5000 and wobo gave?

[dubigrasu]

If you don't want me to give support here or act as a bridge to the developers or documentation team, feel free to tell me, then i'll stop doing that.

Now you get carried away and overreacting. No one asked you to do that and no sane person would want that, that would be to much of a loss to Mageia community.
I can see you are upset by this apparent ungratefulness but let me assure you that we are really grateful for your relentless work.

On a related note, this part of the thread consumed nearly an hour of my time, and no actual result, other than keeping me from doing support/packaging.
But if you feel this is helpful and it's better this way, sure, why not.

Of course it is, sharing feelings and clarifying some things in a decent manner is always helpful, we're not freaking robots you know

[wobo]

My point of view is from a user side but from a administrator side too. For example, after my experience as administrator of the Mandriva Greek community forum, i decided to the Mageia forum to not apply different colors for admins, moderators etc. Is something that automatically gives another weight in each member replies, positions etc. So everyone is equal. The actual moderator asked me to have a different color and i told him that i want to see if there is any difference in the member experience. Until now, after some discussions everyone things that it is the biggest positive difference between the Greek mageia community and others (ubuntu, or communities with other than linux forums)

Ok, so let me look at it from the administrator side as well (I've been admin of the German Mageia forum and founder and admin of the German MandrivaUser.de forum for a couple of years, so I guess I will qualify). If you look closely neither doktor nor I show a color with our names which signals special positions or whatever. The blue colors with our names signal that we are members of special groups (MAQeia and Mageia Founders) which have nothing to do with authority or higher weight of postings.

You stress the point that no colors at all is a positive feature of the Greek Mageia forum. Well, and this is also taken from my experience as long time forum user AND administrator, fact is that normal users are not looking at colors to judge a poster. They weigh the quality of postings and posters from the contents of their posts, no matter what the position. The different colors in this forum have a totally different meaning and benefit, though. They are there to tell new and unexperienced forum users who to turn to in cases of conflicts or questions - that's why there is a legend at the bottom of the Board Index view.

[wobo]

we're not freaking robots you know

Neither is the doktor. As I know him in person (RL) I can testify that he is a human being like most of us, with (at least) the same amount of patience and good will as you and me and all the others.

[dubigrasu]

When I said we I included The Doctor as well. I thought it was obvious, sorry.

[almusalimalmusalimah]

doktor5000

i am glad that you are one of mageia team

and anyone who suggest that you stop to be one of them .... surely will made a big big big mistake

i mean since this forum has been established no one absolutely no one gave us "the beginners" more help than you

====

all the people here .... listen carefully

anyone here is a human .... and none human in this world is a complete one .... this mean everyone someday will make amistake

so .... dont be to harsh on each other if that happened ....

the second thing

dont be too harsh on the others if you understood his talk as you think while in his thought that what you understood is a completly different then what he meant

=====

and about what did Mr.doktor5000 said to me i didnt see there was something in it to drive me crazy

=====

anway thanks Mr.doktor5000 and everyone here

[marja]

i would preferred that old, new, future members feel warm as like at home. (something that i did nt felt here, at least until now)

Hi dglent

To tell you the truth, the reason that I started contributing shortly after I visited the forum for the first time, was that I felt so much at home here.

My first post on the forum, was on august 23, 2011.

Max, Isadora, Doktor5000 and Alf and others, too, have been very nice to me. In my experience their reactions were very warm. A reaction of Alf was the last push I needed to reply to the first call for help I saw, one of the Bug Squad.

I joined the Bug Squad on the 1st of September 2011, only nine days after my first post on the forum

I'm still curious, dglent, whether you still think

No, we will definitely not have two versions of Firefox.

sounds harsh, in spite of the explaining that was already there:

Do you know how much work it is to do one Firefox update for the stable release? Also back in the days when that project first surfaced it was really unstable, not well-maintained and introduced many bugs.

and in spite of what doktor5000 explained later.

Did your interpretation of those words change?

[marja]

Maybe I should say why it is so important to me to know whether dglents interpretation of doktor5000's words changed:

The forum has mixed functions. It is

a meeting place where you can enjoy meeting others from the Mageia community
a place to find help for problems with your Mageia system

This is like having a help desk in a café.

When answering the phone of a help desk and getting questions about not working printers all the time, I know I wouldn't manage to keep on saying:

We really think you setup everything alright, but since because of playful cats or children, passing heavy trucks and some other causes USB cables tend to get detached, can you please make sure that the cable is still plugged in on both sides? And when you do so, can you please check the power cable, too?

I know I would, after some time, ask:

Just to be sure: can you please check whether the power cable and the USB cable are plugged in?

And with a huge workload and little time, I would start asking:

Are the cables plugged in?

We don't talk in a terse way like that when we're in a café, but for help desks it is normal.

I think the café function of the forum gives confusion about what to expect from the computer doctor.

@ dglent, what do you think?

[wobo]

I think the café function of the forum gives confusion about what to expect from the computer doctor.

Hmm, of course none of us could tell what others are thinking, so it may well be that somebody thinks in the same way as you. Especially those who are mostly at home in the non-technical area, aka the chatbox (or "Wizard's lair" or whatever"). But other than the café in your example this forum is not a cafè with an added help desk, it is the other way round: a help desk and platform for discussions about the distribution with a small coffee table attached.

In the help and discussion sections this forum is in no way the same kind of platform as talking to somebody in real life. So you can't transfer the same style as you would talk in a café or on a help desk line for customers. It is not a platform where the top priority is on the question whether everybody feels warm and cozy. It is fine and ok if the majority likes it here and we have basic codecs like "do not offend nor attack others, even if you have a different opinion". But the top priority is on reporting problems, asking questions and answering these questions.

Certainly everybody is different and has a different interpretation of single words, adding to the multilingual origin of people. And - to say it clear and simple - we are not in kindergarten here. But may be we have a different opinion about what this forum is.

Something about your first sentence:
If you say it is important to you whether one user feels ok about something it should be equally important to you whether the other guy who was criticized (and all other users) feel(s) ok.

[doktor5000]

Something about your first sentence:
If you say it is important to you whether one user feels ok about something it should be equally important to you whether the other guy who was criticized (and all other users) feel(s) ok.

Interestingly nobody asked me, but i've gotten used to getting beat on, yelled at or accused of something, and i'm also rather thick-skinned.
I hope nobody else's mood was negatively affected As a consequence i've also updated my signature ...

[marja]

Something about your first sentence:
If you say it is important to you whether one user feels ok about something it should be equally important to you whether the other guy who was criticized (and all other users) feel(s) ok.

Interestingly nobody asked me, but i've gotten used to getting beat on, yelled at or accused of something, and i'm also rather thick-skinned.
I hope nobody else's mood was negatively affected As a consequence i've also updated my signature ...

I love your disclaimer

[marja]

I hope nobody else's mood was negatively affected As a consequence i've also updated my signature ...

I love your disclaimer

It saves me work. If dglent had replied that your explanation made your words sound less harsh, I would have tried to write something about how to interpret terse reactions and mailed it to mageia-discuss or asked Isadora or Maât what would be a good place to put it.

You disclaimer is much better than whatever I could have written, and moreover: everybody who sees your posts sees the disclaimer.

Thanks a lot